Northern Rhodesians Worldwide
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Message Board
Catherine for my money, yep. There is a difference between an all out good natured barney and blatant calculated sneering, and illegal offensiveness. It is rare that his postings are not blatantly offensive and some of his postings are possibly legally actionable if someone wanted to take the action. Freedom of speech includes freedom to go elsewhere and not endanger the ambience and safety of the vision of a group of people.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 23:50:22 (UTC)
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Per Cathy Nelson, I wrote
Please bring us a cuppa Five Roses tea and a saucer with Lobels Lemon Cream biscuits.
Yes, I agree, that was a very unfortunate choice of words. What I intended to say was that after the bar room type brawl in the past week or so, it would be good for Ayub and I to sit down and enjoy a cuppa, and for someone to please bring it. It came across that Auyb should have brought it.
That was never my intention, and I acknowledge that that sounds rich. But believe me - cross my heart.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 23:42:08 (UTC)
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I have just re-read the last sentence of Mr. Tamm's posting 5 times (no, not the one about Solitaire) and I am still not sure I believe my eyes. If he is saying what I think he is saying, he really does need to be removed from this online community forever.
Cathrine Nelson [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Washington, DC, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 22:35:40 (UTC)
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Pinch and a Punch for the beginning of the Month
No Returns
OK all you Windows Solitaire officianados, here is a question for you - when playing this game, 3 card draw, standard scoring, what is the maximum attainable score?
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 18:14:10 (UTC)
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Zumla, ranting:
I think its time you changed your attitudes and perceptions about people of other races and cultures. Like it or not we all have to live together in this World..you have to give and take...I shall pray to the good Lord that He gives you the foresight to accept the real World we live in...maybe I may even ask the Pharoahs! Cheer up man!
To the relief of many, I am not going further with this enormous waste of bandwidth. But allow me to encpsulate recent events. Zumla, quoting a highly placed, highly educated Zambian Minister, says that Fanagalo, Chikabanga, Chilapa Lapa, Kitchen Kaffir or whatever, was a European invention designed for them to bark orders at domestic servants. That is just plain untrue, and needed correction. From that point on, the "debate" degenerated into what it became, with Zumla now ranting about attitudes and perceptions. Both the unnamed Minister and Zumla are way off base here.
Thanks for your offer of praying old fruit, but I have never been more cheerful in my life.
Please bring us a cuppa Five Roses tea and a saucer with Lobels Lemon Cream biscuits.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 17:15:28 (UTC)
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AYUB
As a travel agent I had the privilege of spending 10 days in Egypt and it was marvellous. I wish you BON VOYAGE and look forward to hearing about your trip on your return.
Anona Balloch [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 14:10:23 (UTC)
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"the Zambesi and the Kafue remain the same, the fish eagle still soars in the crystal clear blue sky under the same glorious African sun... it's the same country"
Arthur those words affected me deeply, maybe its my age or the fact that 30 years ago today was my last day as a resident of Zambia, Steve and I flew out to South Africa on the 1st May 1974 ...
Vivienne
Vivienne Jeannette Buitendag (née Eldridge) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Boksburg, South Africa
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 13:01:07 (UTC)
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While on one of my infrequent visits to my local the chat turned to the various states of intoxication after i had diclosed that i had fallen down a flight of steps recently and could only put it down to the moderate amount of whisky i had consumed at a Saterday morning reunion, one of the participants said you were drunk, before I could issue my denial a gentleman named Joe Lewis informed the assembly that you are not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on, which completely exonerated me from answering the charge, have a nice day all of you and dont let the Bliksems get you down Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 08:22:24 (UTC)
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1500!
The GNR is really going places - 1500 members now! It seems only a couple of months ago that I posted a message saying "Wow - 700 members!" However it isn't numbers that count but quality. Let's not frighten off prospective new members with petty slanging matches. Everyone is entitled to their own views and who knows, they may well be correct! My view of life has changed considerably over the years and no doubt will continue to evolve. Thank you Dave Cooper for initiating a forum that has reunited so many old friends and introduced us to so many potential friends around the world.
Go well
David Gray [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
South Africa
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 07:56:04 (UTC)
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Am I missing something here? Isn't American the language that is spoken most in the world...
Oh, I know I'm being facetious, but isn't it time we all lightened up a bit here, folks. Remember that this is not a politically oriented message board. The discussion of languages is fascinating, and we should be able to discuss it all in depth without resorting to the verbal jabs from the usual suspects. I dunno about anyone else, but my nanny is the one who taught me what I thought at the time was FunnyGalore. What's more.. I use it when I go to the primary schools here to do presentations on Zambia for the kids. I will, no doubt, be accused of corrupting the offical language by the purists on the board, but you should see the kids enjoying themselves getting their little Texan accents around the words I try to teach them. In the end, it's not what you actually say, but the heart behind it that counts... by this times.
Linda Hayes (née Dore) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Austin, Texas, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 04:07:29 (UTC)
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Hi all,
This debate regarding the different languages is and has been very interesting, However I find what really gets my goat (Mbuzi...hehehehe.......Tina that one was for you !!!).........is the way people sling off at one another by the use of the last/surname instead of ones first name, I find that rather derogatory.....
Nicky
I was in the same boot as you, I was linguistically handicapped as a little child, I knew only Afrikaans,no English, it was only when my family emigrated to NZ that I had to learn English and of course being PC in those days the Afrikaans was dropped...never to be spoken again, the funny part about that is I wasn't even born in South Africa!!!!!........I sometimes wish I had been able to speak another language....my children are lucky they have that chance, what makes me laugh is up until last year the two younger ones Jade and Leah learned French at their primary school, the local high school teaches Japanese or Indonesian as a second language so the children upon reaching high school have to change languages...............now my daughters are going to a new school and guess what language they are learning now....hhmmmm Italian......talk about confusing....what i am trying to say is whatever, wherever there is always going to be that conflict in what language is suitable to speak............
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 02:17:05 (UTC)
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Ayub I've just found time to check in with the GNR after a long absence. I always enjoy your thought-provoking contributions. Judging by some of the thoughtful answers you received so do many others. The multi-cultural diversity of this world is one of the fascinating things about it. We can fight over our differences or we can use those same areas of differences speaking with courtesy even when we disagree with a point made to learn from eachother. Enjoy Egypt.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Friday, April 30, 2004 at 01:40:53 (UTC)
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Nicky I did, didn't you wear any? Love Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 23:37:40 (UTC)
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"The original intent of the Great North Road Web site was to provide a forum for expatriates who lived in the British protectorate of Northern Rhodesia. Most of these people were only resident in the country up until or shortly after October, 1964, when Zambia achieved its independence. Now there are many expatriates participating on the site who never lived in the country when it was Northern Rhodesia and don't consider themselves "Northern Rhodesians". Expat Zambians and current Zambian residents are welcome to join and take part in this site. In fact, we are honoured and delighted to welcome them as special members who had the courage to press on and try and continue the wonderful African life we felt we had to abandon. We would like expat Zambians and current Zambians to join us in the celebration of this wonderful place. After all, the Zambesi and the Kafue remain the same, the fish eagle still soars in the crystal clear blue sky under the same glorious African sun... it's the same country, only the logo has changed".
Dave Cooper -- Founder of the Great North Road Website -- 1996
Keep well my friend, we have passed another milestone on our journey along the Great North Road all thanks to you.
We welcome aboard our 1500th Member Lily Watkins today.
Arthur
Arthur Steevens [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Stockport, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 23:10:34 (UTC)
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When I went to NR I couldn't speak any English I was only four years old at the time and lived out in the bush in Mucambo, just outside Mufulira. My only friends were black. For four years I grew up with them played with them and as they couldn't speak Greek, they taught me to speak Chikabanga. I only learned to speak English when I started school at eight years old.
Why did they not teach me their local lingo?
In my opinion the reason Chikabanga was outlawed in Zambia was because some nationality not to mention names called it Kitchen Kaffir.
Someone says we should wish KK a happy birthday, Would you wish someone who owed you money over 36 years ago and not paid up, a happy birthday? How many ex NR's are still waiting for their money?
Nicky Kontou [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 21:05:26 (UTC)
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|Tamm,
I never said Indian traders were popular. You better get your facts right...go back on this message board and tell me where I have said this! All I said was that Indian traders learnt Nyanja in the Eastern Province very quickly. And that is a fact!
As for the tone of your language..I leave for others to judge. I was always taught by my English teachers in Zambia (Miss De Villiers ...bless her soul..and Mrs Ann Flint) to refrain from using such cheap words....and that whenever one resorts to such language ..that person has either "lost it" or lost the argument.
I think its time you changed your attitudes and perceptions about people of other races and cultures. Like it or not we all have to live together in this World..you have to give and take...I shall pray to the good Lord that He gives you the foresight to accept the real World we live in...maybe I may even ask the Pharoahs! Cheer up man!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 20:50:05 (UTC)
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Betty
You forgot the verse Footsak lo feathers! after mblala lo mkuku. Ha! Ha!
I remember all those things you mentioned, great life.
Johnny
You must have looked really cool with your black nickers and eating your sweets.Ha! Ha!
Nicky Kontou [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 20:31:06 (UTC)
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Pat
Buffalo Balls could be amasende ya inyatsi. That's maybe right in one of the 58 or so different Zambian languages.
Ayub
It is true that an educated Zambian would take offence if you insisted on addressing him in Chikabanga after he had told you he could understand English. The reason for this is that it was mostly used in a master to servant situation, and he would assume (rightly or wrongly) that you were talking down to him. This attitude was often adopted by people who were only quarter edumacated but justi wishingi to provoki argumentifications.
However you must remember that before Independence there were very few well educated Zambians and Chikabanga therefore did serve a very usefull purpose of facilitating communication, in exactly the same way as Swahili was used by the Arabs. Suprisingly kiSwahili has been adopted as an official language in East Africa while Chikabanga is fading away.
We also found it very usefull in our young days to surrepticiously discuss the various ladies assetts while visiting England with some NR friends. On day on a bus we were caught out by the lovely blonde we had been commenting on, when she turned around and said, " Hey! Wena mampara sterik! (Hey! You are very stupid). She must have been a Kitwe bun on holiday.
Some years ago in South Africa the government was trying to give a better face to apartheid and it renamed the minister of native affairs as the minister of 'plural' development. This led the comedian Pieter Dirk Uys to comment that when singing 'Ag, please Daddy' we must no longer mention 'nigger balls' (the sweets) but instead say 'plural globes'. Very PC for sethafrica.
Doug - with cheek in tongue!
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 20:27:03 (UTC)
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Zumla writes:
Zita ....as for asking some of our indegineous Zambian friends to air an opinion...it appears that they seem to have been driven off the Message board by the likes of Tamm....their non-appearnce is our loss..for they contributed a lot ..and helped us undersatnd African Culture in a better perspective! Lets see if we can persuade them to come back!
I will leave alone your baseless and worthless comments that you have made here in the past week or so - passing the comments of others without serious consideration. And also the bit about how popular Indian traders were in Zambia. That kind of stuff does not belong here, and you should know that. But to say that I drive off people here is assanine. I have observed before, when someone, anyone, any race color creed, says something that is patently untrue, I will challenge that person. I have challenged the likes of Puta Checkwe, Mulenga, Cooper, and others for perfectly good reason. If they went away because of that, then perhaps their contributions were not worth listening to?
Then you say:
Finally, I am glad this stirred some good debate!
Absolute rubbish old chap. You have contributed sweet fanny adams (wherever that may have originated?) Passing comments of "highly Educated, highly placed Zambians" without your own consideration is not debate.
Finally you say
I am off to Egypt tomorrow for a few days..maybe I will try and converse with the Pharoahs!!!
You will enjoy that. The Pharoahs will never challenge you there, and you can debate them and win - 100% of all time
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 19:54:05 (UTC)
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I don`t know how we are all getting fired up on this funigalo or what ever issue,it had nothing to do with racialisim or any other issims,in fact in Zambia we were very multicultural,or at least the people I hung about with were.Maybe not at first,but that was not because we did not like each other,but rather because that was the way we were raised.
I think if we all think about it you will find I am right,and think about this rather than race colour or creed,One Zambia One Nation,or was I the only one there.
Oh!happy birthday Dave and G.N.R.better late than never.ha!ha!
Pappy Papier [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Glasgow, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 19:30:32 (UTC)
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Helen
Learning about each other's cultures and respecting each other's religions is the only way forward. Its all to do with building bridges. Yes, Muslims should also learn..but then please do not fall into the trap of labelling all Muslims as being the same. What has happened lately is the work of a small minority of Muslims. The majority are peaceful and many have learnt about Christianity at schools they attend. I was only writing from what was observed by a BBC correspondent in his dispatch last week (on the 10 o'clock news) about how insensitive American Marines were to Muslim places of Worship..compared with British Soldiers. His observation was that it would not solve all problems by respecting Friday prayers at a Mosque..but they would lessen them. You will recall that not too far back in history Indira Gandhi sent in troops to flush out Sikh Separatists from the Holiest Sikh Shrine..The Golden Temple. The outrage felt by the Sikhs is still felt today by many..and Indira Ghandi was assassinated by her Sikh bodyguard! Yes, we must all learn about each other. That is the only way forward.
Robert..if you visit http://wwwethnologue.com/show_language.asp
you will see the quote..or drival as you call it.
Zita..
Thanks for your support. I can assure you that (after having asked opinions from those Black Zambians I know who are studying here in the UK) most black educated Zambians would loathe anyone conversing in Chilapalapa with them.. Why? One has to ask them!...I was only giving one Minister's opinion. Its not my opinion. If he finds it offensive..who am I to tell him he is wrong! Taking another example, I have heard some White commentators on the local radio actually trying to justify the (off the camera) remark made by Ron Atkinson in relation to the black Chelsea footballer Dessialey (last week) on the grounds that young Blacks in the UK do not find the word offensive!! The word being the N word. Now is that not paternalism! So it is better to ask someone if he/she finds something offensive rather that telling him it is not!
Zita ....as for asking some of our indegineous Zambian friends to air an opinion...it appears that they seem to have been driven off the Message board by the likes of Tamm....their non-appearnce is our loss..for they contributed a lot ..and helped us undersatnd African Culture in a better perspective! Lets see if we can persuade them to come back!
Finally, I am glad this stirred some good debate! I am off to Egypt tomorrow for a few days..maybe I will try and converse with the Pharoahs!!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 18:56:07 (UTC)
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Dear Betty, I remember all of them but you missed out when you mentioned the gym slip uniform the black knickers with the sweets in the little pocket. Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 17:10:24 (UTC)
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All this talk about language and political correctness is amusing. People can read anything into anything - it all depends on their individual sense of security. One of the nicer parts of the US lifestyle is their sense of self deprecation. Last year in June I received the story that follows herewith. The old adage about ACTIONS speaking better than words is vividly illustrated. Of course, while the English language is used to repeat the story the actions of those involved are universal. It could happen anywhere one finds ants and grasshoppers !
Post Script : For those GNR's wondering whether I'm an ant or a grasshopper . . . . . let me assure you that I am neither.
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The Fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper
CLASSIC VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well-fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.
MODERN VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well-fed while others are cold and starving.
CBS, NBC and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green.
Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing "We Shall Overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. Al Gore, reemerging from his self-imposed exile, exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share."
Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.
Senator Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed, during a Senate recess, from a list of single-parent welfare recipients.
The ant loses the case.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow.
The grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 16:40:53 (UTC)
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Ayub,
You wrote,
CIKABANGA.."Influenced by Bemba in Zambia. Rejected by most Africans because it was imported from Zimbabwe and South Africa by Europeans who did not want Africans to learn English"
I am not quite sure who suggested this drivel to you, but I do wish you would use your own your own innate intelligence to see the speciousness of this argument.
I cannot claim to know much of the attitudes prior to 1948 in South Africa, but I do know that in the Rhodesias there was a concerted effort to teach English at all levels of society. As for the rejection of Zambians claiming disdain for the lingua franca, I would discount that also, most industrial jobs were dependent on it.
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 16:33:46 (UTC)
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Thanks for That Info Kevin, I knew you would come up with Chisela Kanchela's name,.....I wonder why....(giggles)
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 14:50:06 (UTC)
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I read all the comments that you GNRer's read and sometimes I get frustrated and other times I just want to go back and see home.
On the issue of language, I feel that I have to write.
The really interesting thing about this conversation is that everyone seems to be of European/white/caucasian (trying to be PC) descent. But what do black Zambia's think? Ayub, raises an interesting point - some black Zambia's do not like being spoken to in the said language (can't spell it so won't). There's nothing you can say which will change the way they feel. It doesn't matter that they went to schools which European
descandents built and taught them in. The point is we need to understand where they are coming from.
I remember reading the Lowdown - Editors Comments. I think Heather went to a meeting about some development and she was shouted at by some Lusaka resident. In her commentary she said something along the lines of we don't talk to people like that here in Zambia - she needed to tell him to make him understand. Please correct me Heather, and maybe that is the point that Ayub was trying to make.
On a lighter note. How many of you learnt to speak a fluent Zambian dialect. If you did, you are a better person than me, because although my mother was Zambian, I speak very, very basic Bemba.
Zita Calvin [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
London, United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 14:17:00 (UTC)
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Dear Bwana Shone:
What a good memory you have.
Love
BM grin
Linda Hayes (née Dore) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Austin, Texas, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 13:06:06 (UTC)
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Hi Ayub,
I couldn't help but disagree with your biased commentary:
"Wouldn't it be useful for American soldiers in Iraq to have learnt that walking with boots in Mosques and having rock music blaring out ot their army trucks whilst prayers are being said in Mossques are for Muslims, a great insult. I do not believe they went through any course in Muslim Rules of etiquette...It's all to do with learning about other people and getting to know their sensitivities!!"
Do you truly believe that a heightened awareness in American soldiers, of Muslim culture, would alleviate the problem and create a rapport among the two parties? If "It's all to do with learning about other people and getting to know their sensitivities", then I beg to question in all fairness, why is the reverse not true with Muslims? It has nothing to do with cultural awareness and ALL to do with treating others, no matter what their culture and race, the way you want to be treated.
Helen D'Cruz [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Temecula, California, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 13:04:06 (UTC)
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DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN...?
All the girls had ugly gym uniforms?
It took five minutes for the TV warm up?
Nearly everyone's Mum was at home when the kids got home from school?
Nobody owned a purebred dog?
When a shilling was a decent allowance?
You'd reach into a muddy gutter for a penny?
Your Mom wore stockings that came in two pieces?
All your male teachers wore ties and female teachers had their hair done every day and wore high heels?
You got your windshield cleaned, oil checked, and petrol pumped, without asking, all for free, every time? And you didn't pay for air?
Cereals had free toys hidden inside the box?
It was considered a great privilege to be taken out to dinner at a real restaurant with your parents?
They threatened to keep kids back a year if they failed. . .and they did?
When a 57 Holden was everyone's dream car?
No one ever asked where the car keys were because they were always in the car, in the ignition, and the doors were never locked?
Lying on your back in the grass with your friends and saying things like, "That cloud looks like a ." and playing footy with no adults to help kids with the rules of the game?
Stuff from the shop came without safety caps and hermetic seals because no one had yet tried to poison a perfect stranger?
And with all our progress, don't you just wish, just once, you could slip back in time and savour the slower pace, and share it with the children of today?
When being sent to the principal's office was nothing compared to the fate that awaited the student at home? Basically we were in fear for our lives, but it wasn't because of drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs, etc. Our parents and grandparents were a much bigger threat!
But we survived because their love was greater than the threat.
And remember that the perfect age is somewhere between old enough to know better and too young to care.
Do you remember a time when...
"Race issue" meant arguing about who ran the fastest?
It wasn't odd to have two or three "Best Friends"?
The worst thing you could catch from the opposite sex was "boy or girl bugs"?
Saturday morning cartoons weren't 30-minute commercials for action figures?
Spinning around, getting dizzy, and falling down was cause for giggles?
The worst embarrassment was being picked last for a team?
Playing cards in the spokes transformed any bike into a motorcycle?
Taking drugs meant orange-flavoured chewable aspirin?
Water balloons were the ultimate weapon?
If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!!
Didn't that feel good, just to go back and say, "Yeah, I remember that"?
Betty Mahady (née Horn) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 12:45:25 (UTC)
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Anne Small, Ian Lesch
Best wishes on your birthday
Heather Chalcraft (née Bender) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Lusaka, Zambia
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 12:04:08 (UTC)
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Hi Gordon,
What a surprise hearing from you after all these years!!
This is just a quick message to acknowledge receipt of your email and to let you know that I will be emailing you this evening.
Best regards
Lorraine
Lorraine Blackstock (née Bosman) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 11:04:20 (UTC)
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Hi Ali
The swimmers name is Chisela Kanchela. He is Zambia’s top male swimmer at present and Ellen Hight the top female with young Jakie Wellman catching up fast.
Both Ellen and Chisela have been selected for the Olympics as each country can send two swimmers even though they do not reach Olympic qualifying times. The swimmers however must have swum earlier in a FINA (the world swimming federation) organised event to prevent a repetition of “Ernie the Eel” at the last Olympics.
Kevin Shone [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ndola, Zambia
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 06:24:37 (UTC)
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Hi Ayub...
About different cultures...
I spent 10 years in the northern arctic regions of Canada. The Inuit - Eskimos - consider their cemeteries and burial grounds sacred places and generally off limits to non Inuit people.
One day I asked an Inuit elder if he was upset with all the tourists and visitors tramping through the sacred Inuit cemeteries and burial grounds.
His reply was - "No, not at all because it gives me an opportunity to explain to them a bit about Inuit history, heritage and customs and why Inuit cemeteries and burial grounds are so sacred to us"...
A very WISE old man indeed and a good lesson in life learned by me.
So rather than criticize people about not knowing some of our cultural differences we should take the lead by gently teaching them about "our culture".
Maybe a good lesson for the Minister's secretary and the Iraqis to learn as well...
Peter Dielissen [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 04:09:19 (UTC)
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Hi Keith:
At the present time there is no way to see all of the members. We used to be able to do that and it was a really good way to find old friends. Meantime, just add anyone you are trying to find under the "Looking For" link and you may be pleasantly surprised to see how people surface.
Linda Hayes (née Dore) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Austin, Texas, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 03:17:19 (UTC)
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Is there a way to look at the list of our 1496 members? I'd love to scan down the list and just look for names I might recognise without having to post a notice "Searching for ..."
I've re-established contact with one old friend after 33 years and contacted several other persons from GNR in the few weeks since I discovered the site. It is such an interesting site and the e-mail postings are generally excellent.
Long may it continue and congratulations on your 8th birthday.
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 03:00:46 (UTC)
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Talking about chika this and chilapa that, I remember having a drunken conversation with David Phiri, Frank Jackman and Chris my bro, a couple of years ago about the delicacies of the bush, and buffalo balls and the best way to prepare them came to the fore, but for the life of me I can't remember the nyanja name or in Mr Phiri's case the ngoni/shona name. Any takers.
Pat McEnery [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Bromley, Kent, England
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 02:20:57 (UTC)
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Hi all
Whilst offline, I came across an article in the sports pages of our Newspaper re a young Zambian swimmer training for the Olympics here in Perth, typical of "Murphy's law" the paper was thrown out........so i can't tell you his name but he HAS qualified for the Olympics with his swimming times.....I wish him all the best !! it is nice to have such a positive bit of news especially in these times..and of course having the Zambian/Perth connection too.
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 02:11:43 (UTC)
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Here is a news story that reminded me of the "Skippy" television program that used to be screened on ZNBC many years ago:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4854823/?GT1=3256
Chandru Krishna [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Rockville, Maryland, United States
Thursday, April 29, 2004 at 00:41:40 (UTC)
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Zumla,
You really should try to regrain from saying things here that are patently untrue. If I were to respond to your most recent tripe, in seriatim, I might well be labelled racist again, and booted out of here.
Cut out the baiting, and stick to matters factual.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 22:22:59 (UTC)
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CHIKABANGA.
I have in my possession a saved Booklet titled the "Glossary of Chikabanga" issued by the The Northern Rhodesia Chamber of Mines (for use in the Copperbelt Mines)..
Page 1. Glossary of Chikabanga.
ALPHABET AND PRONUNCIATION
INTRODUCTION
Chikabanga is not a language but a Lingua-Franca of many Bantu dialects which has grown as a result of contact between the Bantu tribes and the English, Afrikaans and Portuguese peoples.
Extremely simple to learn by European and African alike, it is a useful medium of expression particularly in Industrial, Agricultural and other working conditions.
Chikabanga is written by means of English letters and though these do not always represent all sounds exactly one may say for all practical purposes that it is written phonetically.
This booklet contains the Alphabet, Accentuation, nouns verbs, etc., and then the glossary from A to Y (no Z) then it also lists various phrases.
So anything you want to know on words or spellings in Chikabanga, contact me.
It has been very amusing at times when my sons and I
sometimes converse on the phone and even this morning when I visited the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) it came in handy when I wished to make a remark to my American husband he knows what Maningi M'fazi's.....means....
Hamba Gashle
June
June Bohl (née Walker, formerly McCarthy) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Los Angeles County, California, United States
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 21:49:21 (UTC)
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Robert and Chris....
I presume one would learn the language of the area you were posted to. For example..if you were sent to the Eastern province..learning Nyanja would have been wonderful. I know all Indians who come from that part speak the language fluently. The first thing Indian settlers did was to learn the local language! That is why they became successful shopkeepers initially in the Rural areas and then in the Towns and Cities.
Chris...I have received a mail from the Minister's secretary who has sent a quote from ALDER :
CIKABANGA.."Influenced by Bemba in Zambia. Rejected by most Africans because it was imported from Zimbabwe and South Africa by Europeans who did not want Africans to learn English"
And she adds on his behalf..don't try using Chilapalapa in front of an educated Zambian..it is as much an insult as... when Gadaffi pointed the toe end of his right shoe towards Blair recently!
Perhaps we all now need to learn the rules of etiquette when dealing with people of other races and cultures! Reminds me of when KK and his delegation went to China on a State visit in the late sixties and on the menu at the Official State banquet was SNAKE. Somebody shouted "Njoka"!! Many of the Zambians threw up!
Wouldn't it be useful for American soldiers in Iraq to have learnt that walking with boots in Mosques and having rock music blaring out of their Army trucks whilst prayers are being said in Mosques are,for Muslims, a great insult. I do not believe they went through any course in Muslim Rules of Etiquette. Compare this to the British forces there..who have been made aware of such rules..and have a much better rapore with the Iraqis and as a result, less problems! Its all to do with learning about other people and getting to know their sensitivities!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 20:40:42 (UTC)
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A lurker finds voice! A happy birthday to Dave Cooper and sincere thanks for founding the Great North Road website and for those who support and keep it running, Arthur, Craig and Heather (alphabetical order of course). For many years I have been teaching coping skills to families dealing with crisis, for a short six weeks we meet twice a week and then we move on with our lives. The participants are grateful and enthusiastic but as the teacher one never knows the impact those few weeks have had on those lives. Then somewhere down the road I by chance meet two fathers who had attended the course and they have become good friends and meet once a month to hike in the many wonderful trails in our area. Although they share a common problem and a common heartache, they find strength and courage to continue though a new friendship and a shared interest. So is it with the Great North Road. Through this conduit many have found a way to reconnect in a positive way with a part of their lives that for so many years seemed to have been lost forever.
Re the discussions regarding languages. In September we returned to Zambia after an absence of thirty-seven years. We spent four or five days at Luwombwa Camp at Kasanka. The elderly camp cook had worked for many years on Rhodesian Railways, he spoke Chikabanga, Steve and he spent hours sharing their life stories through this medium, delighting in the fact that the younger men in the camp did not understand what they were saying and could not share in their memories or their jokes. In turn Steve could just as well converse with the younger men in Bemba. And yes Doug for your information it was all flavoured with an acquired Canadian accent! An added bonus, our Canadian born and bred son who had traveled with us was lost in wonder at this amazingly revealed talent of his father’s, he had been totally unaware over all these years that his father could do anything but speak Canadian English with an African accent!!!
I have just purchased a book “Dark Star Safari” by Paul Theroux, a journey from Cairo to Capetown. He chronicles his return and travels through Africa after having taught in Malawi and Uganda forty years ago. A wonderful read, and so much of his style of writing and his perceptions reflect our own feelings on returning to the land of our birth after an absence of thirty-seven years.
Steven de Lange [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Langley, British Columbia, Canada
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 19:26:30 (UTC)
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Happy Birthday Dawie! Jy moet terug kom jong!
Also Happy birthday to Uncle Ken! If as my friend in China says he is still going around with a begging bowl it means he must have been more honest than Chiluba who robbed millions.
Nicky, you are correct it was called ChiKabanga in NR.
Alix, welcome back.
Cheers - Doug
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 19:12:09 (UTC)
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Languages
With all this talk of languages I thought that I'd share my experience of this morning. I duly delivered my presentation to a group of 45 mainly French speaking World Bank delegates who insisted that everything be interpreted into their mother tongue. This is fine but my 20 minute presentation stretched to about 45 minutes as a result! I ended the presentation with a joke and everyone laughed before the interpretor started the translation so I really wonder about their inability to understand English!!! There were a few English speaking folk present including two from Lusaka. I was too busy seeing that the group didn't come to harm in the tunnel so I wasn't able to ask the two from Zambia if they read The Lowdown Heather.
Cheers
David Gray [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
South Africa
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 18:30:52 (UTC)
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Robert H
When Ayub mentions it would have been preferable for the Europeans to learn the native tongue, I was wondering which language he had in mind.
Good question. Perhaps his highly educated and very senior Zambian minister buddy would wish to opine?
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 17:57:17 (UTC)
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William Knott,
The White Fathers in Abercorn ran classes for those wishing to learn an African language. I still have the books. Some books had primitive drawings with the vernacular alongside, others were in plain text.
When Ayub mentions it would have been preferable for the Europeans to learn the native tongue, I was wondering which language he had in mind.
Bob Huntley
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 16:37:31 (UTC)
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Dawie,
Happies to you, happies to you.
Jou blikskottel. wwis jy?
I joined Daves site about 3 mths after it opened and do wish him al the best in his Dutch retreat.
Doug ,
Cant recall if we had cinjanja as an option at Gilbert Rennie, but I do recall that, while in Mufulira, my Mom and I went to cibemba lessons for a few years. My Dad learned it for his underground work and we were not ready to be upstaged by him.
Taught by a chap who was tied into the churches in some way. I guess it was a good way to earn a few more tickies.
William Knott [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 15:40:49 (UTC)
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Ken Rose
Best wishes on your birthday
Arthur
The vegetables and other horticultural produce (mostly roses tothe Netherlands) that are exported to Europe are mostly grown by commercial farmers as it requires enormous capital investment in greenhouses. cold roooms etc. Where it is grown by small scale farmers, the investment in cold rooms etc is made by the commercial farmers and it is done under an 'outgrowers' scheme with the commercial farmers providing infrastructure, pre-season finance, extension services and logitics. I'm afraid I cannot say whether the small scale farmers receive a fair deal as this depends very much on who they are selling to locally, and who the farmer is exporting to.
Beth
Shoe shopping is not on my list of things to do in the next few months, but if you email me with what you would like, I will give you my recommendations and all the other information that you need.
Heather Chalcraft (née Bender) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Lusaka, Zambia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 15:20:53 (UTC)
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I am mostly a lurker so to post twice in one day is quite something for me. However I too want to add my voice to all who give thanks to Dave Cooper for starting this wonderful site. I did try to email him but it was returned to me so this is an open letter which I hope Dave will read:
Dear Dave,
I haven't heard from you or about you for months and hope all is well. I believe today is the GNR 10th anniversary and if you still read the notice board I am sure you will have seen the various letters written in, all of them letters of gratitude and I want to add mine to those letters. I went to South Africa in February and met up with four old Zambian school friends, girls that were brought together through my contact with the GNR. We hadn't seen one another in over 30 years but those years just seemed to slip away whilst we tried to catch up in the short time we had together.
People are constantly amazed when I tell them how I have met up or made contact with so many old school friends and just this week-end my best friend from school days visited me in UK. Since we first made contact in October 2002 we have managed to see one another four times despite the fact that Barbara lives in Johannesburg. What is so amazing and sad is that we didn't live that far apart when I lived in Johannesburg and I did try and trace her when I first arrived in South Africa from Zambia but without success. And then you had the brilliant idea of setting up this wonderful site and the rest is history.
Thanks again and good luck and good health.
Betty Mahady (née Horn) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 14:38:58 (UTC)
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Hi Nicky, with all the talk about Fanikalo I have been waiting for somebody to mention the record which was absolutely hilarious. I can still remember parts of it, for instance the verse "Jim balala lo mkuku, Jim balala lo mkuku, missus hamba chia golf, me babysit, fanikalo"
I am sure I have the spelling all wrong! Anybody else remember the song and some more verses?
Betty Mahady (née Horn) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 14:22:38 (UTC)
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Dave Cooper ......Happy Birthday to you .....as well as the GNR !!!
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 14:13:25 (UTC)
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Dave & the GREAT NORTH ROAD.org.
Happy - Happy Birthday ! ! !
Thanks also to the mighty team of Craig, Arty & Heather
who continue to brighten our lives every day in many
special ways...
Sue Coughlan (née Forde) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, WA, Australia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 14:07:18 (UTC)
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Northerners
Eight years ago today, the following made it's way onto the WWW:
Northern Rhodesians!
Some months ago us Northerners grumbled about having to sit at the same Web table as our less fortunate neighbours from the "other side" of the Zambesi. So we scrummed together and came up with a Web site for Northern Rhodesians. If you're interested, you can find "Northern Rhodesians Worldwide" at www.greatnorthroad.org. It's release 1.0, so it will be ameliorated and improved in time. It's graphic-rich, and if you don't have something like Netscape Navigator 2.0 as your browser, you probably won't be able to see much of the information, as it was intended to be designed using tables, frames, special alignment, graphic rules, and so on.
Dave Cooper (cooperd@best.com) San Francisco, CA, USA - Sunday, April 28, 1996 at 04:40:29 (WAST)
The date is also significant, in that is is also Dave Cooper's birthday.
Heather Chalcraft (née Bender) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Lusaka, Zambia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 13:30:39 (UTC)
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Hilry,
Yes there are many South African and Zimbabwean staff in the NHS. What is worrying is that so many skilled Zimbabweans have left the country and sought Asylum in the UK. Despot Mugabe better realise that soon all the skilled workforce will have left Zimbabwe...most will settle here and not return! Feel sorry for the ordinary folk there. These are trying times for a once economically strong country. Lets hope something is done before it becomes another North Korea.
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 12:58:45 (UTC)
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Gordon
I was in Mbala the Easter weekend just gone and drove past the Abercorn Arms, a shadow of its former glory I am afraid. I don’t know if the Grasshopper Inn was up and running at that time. My dad moved to Kasama in 1946 so your folks may very well have bumped into him, he worked at PDC Stores those days.
Ali
Welcome back on line, it has been soooooo quite while you have been off.
Kevin Shone [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ndola, Zambia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 12:33:55 (UTC)
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At the risk of being shot down by our esteemed founder, Happy Birthday, Dawie!
Thanks for your foresight in starting this website. You have brought many old and new friends together. People from across the globe have found each other, been able to reminisce about good times and special people in their lives and a country that is second to none.
Wherever you are today, may your day be filled with good thoughts and the knowledge that you are not forgotten.
Linda Hayes (née Dore) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Austin, Texas, United States
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 11:58:00 (UTC)
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Hi all
I am back online yahoooo........apart from being back on dial-up until the slowest organisation in the world gets their A into G , and connects me to broard band....
thank goodness I now can read the message board without eye strain.(try reading the GNR on a 3inch screen, one message takes about 3-4 pages..(my mobile phone)
regarding the Language debate no matter where in the world , men/women need to commmunicate and regardless to racisim etc if there is a language that can be understood between people than so be it..
Artie.
the birthday is the GNR ? is it not?
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 09:03:05 (UTC)
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Gordon Foster,
That was a great story of your travels around the country 55 years ago. I did enjoy it.
What are you doing now in Antigua? Sounds like another wonderful spot in the Caribbean.
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 07:58:05 (UTC)
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DOUG
Yes it was certainly a well written and intresting book. SGB certainly lived no ordinary life....quite an elaborate man with a house to equal. No wonder Lorna took refuge in the tower with her violin playing to an audience of sympathetic hyeans. Maybe she'd have been happier in the first house, a white washed, thatched rondavel. I know I would have.
Anona Balloch [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 06:58:21 (UTC)
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After many pleasant evenings running through the GNR contributions. Firstly I realised just how many names I do not know, or can't recognise or in fact probably never knew. I spent a couple of decades on the Copperbelt and feel I would like to try and add a few contributions of my own.
In 1949 whilst attending R.E.P.S. Prep School, way out in the Matopos Hills, (Matabeleland) my father decided we should make the safari up to see "Uncle Cyril" (Cyril Boote a.k.a. "Bootee") who worked for the Red Locust Control at Mbeya/Abercorn. And so two days later our Morris 10 packed with F+M+2 Kids + tents + mosquito nets +++ set off via Vic. Falls/Livingstone, Lusaka, B. Hill, K. Mposhi.....
All went fine till we got somewhere around Kapiri Mposhi and there we ran out of good road. It was wet season and the wheel ruts in the road were humungous. Grounded on the rut in the middle the Morris's wheels just couldn't reach the ground.
With the help of a grader and a 4 wheel drive vehicle we were deposited on the shoulder. Slowly we skidded and pushed the overloaded Morris until we got to the Kapiri turnoff there we bought a couple more 4 gallon cans of petrol and set off slowly up the Great North Road. There was practically no other traffic on the road which was fortunate as we zigzaged up covering most of the width of the road. I do not know what they made the roads with in those days but it was almost impassable in the rain. 40 miles or so up the road surface changed abruptly. This was a non-skid surface but as we clocked up the miles we got into "heavy corrugation country". We reached Kasama three hard days later.
"Bootee" and family gave us a wonderful reception. Cyril, a Mechanical Engineer, took time off to replace both rear spring centre bolts, a radiator mounting and a cracked oil pipe.
Young David Boote we managed to find again 55 years later...through the GNR.....and he and my brother are now trying to update the family tree.
The river crossings, two I believe, were handled well and the roads once clear of the Kapiri area were pretty good.
As you might expect hospitality everywhere in those days was unbelievable. The local people in the missions and villages were very well dressed, very polite and eager to talk to us whenever they had the chance. Eggs at the Kasama Market were a shilling a dozen for large, 10p a doz. for med. and 6p. a doz. for small eggs. Condensed Milk was the order of the day and everybody ate local food with the possible exception of the good old Fray Bentos Corned Beef and Heinz Baked Beans.
The nearby Abercorn Arms was the only hotel around and the local watering hole. However, the Government Rest Houses were available almost everywhere at I think 3s. 6p. per head per night. Breakfast was available but I cannot remember what this might have cost. Anything "Government" was noticably immacculate. The bottom 5 ft. of all the trees were blancoed white. All fences, signs etc. were well kept and everything had an incredibly orderly air about it. Compare this with today!
This story has to end here as from Abercorn my father decided to look up yet another relative in Malawi. We got back to Matopos Hotel seven weeks and 9,000 miles later.
Gordon Foster [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Antigua, West Indies, Antigua
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 at 03:48:11 (UTC)
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Ayub,
If they had tried to teach everyone English there would have been a very righteous outcry of colonialism! It would also have taken far too long. Every dangerous environment generates it's own sub-dialect that aids the safety of those there. Chikabanga was/is a sub-language, if you like, that goes a little bit further, to cover the wide variety of languages spoken by the workers at all levels.
I also have grave doubts that the NHS is about to employ non-English speaking nurses, even if they do come from the (enlarged) EU. There are too many compensation cases already! I do however acknowledge the great contribution of the nurses from SA, Zimbabwe, Zambia having met several during an enforced stay in hospital about 2 years ago.
Hilry
Hilry Wilson (née Cartwright, formerly Wright) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ayr, Scotland, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 21:40:36 (UTC)
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Hilry,
Perhaps the better solution then was to teach all the workers English. We are soon going to have a massive problem here in the UK with thousands of people of Eastern European origin already here and more expected soon....and the thousands who have already come here from Iraq and Kurdish areas...very few of them speak any English. At least many early immigrants (West Indians and Asians from Africa) had a good command of English! Most of these recent immigrants know ziltch English!!! And Tony Blair has announced today that work permits given to people from Asia and other Third world countries will be drastically reduced..in favour of non-English speaking Eastern Europeans! Now imagine a South African Nurse with command over the English language will now find it extremely difficult to obtain a work Permit. Currently there are many S. African, Zimbabwean, Sri Lankan, Indian,Phillipino nurses working in the UK NHS. All speaking good English!
Anyone currently thinking about coming to the UK on a work permit...better hurry up!!
See how Language creates so many problems!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 21:07:55 (UTC)
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Tomorrow (Wednesday) our former President Dr. Kenneth David Kaunda, turns 80! Whatever one thinks of him lets wish him a happy birthday! According to recent reports he seems to have reclaimed the accolade of "Father of the nation"..and has found a new friend in the present Zambian leader. Zambian Churches are also looking to him to mediate between the State and the Church. Anyone think he may be making a comeback? Last time I saw him was at a Conference at Manchester University on Third world Debt (some of it was borrowed whilst he was in power!!!) a few years ago..he seemed to be in good health! Still uses the White hankie! Recently he was in South Africa ...before the Elections there. I think he is testing the ground! Good Golfer he was...so he knows his way around the course .Anyone on the board know who holds the World's oldest Head of State title?
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 20:39:55 (UTC)
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It is a pity the discussion on Chikabanga/Fanikalo seems to dwell on the white/black divide. The underground mines are dangerous places and communication is essential. Not only black Africans of varied languages work(ed) there, but also white Africans and expatriates of almost as many different languages. In this day and age, you might expect to be tested for understanding of the official language before you were given employment. A crash course in Chikabanga meant all persons underground could understand commands - vital for safety and in emergencies. Chikabanga is not a developed language, few nuances and niceties, and yes, it is mostly about commands, but if the command is to flee, to save your life, are you going to argue? Perhaps you might be thankful you understood.
Yes, I agree one should make an effort to learn the local language of the place where one lives, but that takes some considerable time. Surely better, in the short term, a system to ensure vital communication is understood.
And, yes, before someone asks, I did work underground in Zambia.
Hilry Wilson (née Cartwright, formerly Wright) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ayr, Scotland, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 20:11:57 (UTC)
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Doug
It brought back memories reading your paragraph in Fanikalo.If my memory serves me right :
When we get old,we will die, the speaking of funikalo will also die. The youth of today don't want to speak funikalo. Stay well. I always thought Gashe meaning careful.or is gashle a different word?
Why does eveyone on here call it Fanakalo. When on the copperbelt we and the africans said Fanikalo(like this) Although mostly on the copperbelt we used to name it as Chikabanga.
I think the name of the lingo came from the Africans, due to when they were shown how to do something the last word was always fanikalo(like this)
We always treated Chikabanga as a form of communication and not in derocative terms, people just like to twist the facts.
Any one remember the song Fanikalo?
Nicky Kontou [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 18:58:09 (UTC)
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Keith
I was basically saying that when us when us 'good old boys' die, Fanakalo will also die because today's youngsters do not want to learn it.
Zumla
I seem to remember that C(h)inyanja was taught at Gilbert Rennie? Bill can you recall this?
Anona
'The Africa House' has come up for discussion on the board in past years. I read the book and found it extremely interesting. Christina Lamb has done an excellent job of capturing the feeling of one man's African dream. In the introduction she says, "More than anywhere I had ever seen, Shiwa Ngandu seemed to symbolize the arrogance, paternalism, vision, and sheer bloody-mindedness of British colonials in Africa". What magnificent arrogance I would add!
I am now sorry that I never visited while Gore-Brown was still alive. I did visit Shiwa House a few years ago, just as the renovation effort was starting. As a builder I was shocked at what this man had accomplished in those primitive days. Even today with access via tarred road and trained artisans, engineers and architects it would be a major construction project. He built the house only with instructions from the British Army building manual. He was helped by a couple of army friends at the start, but of course the main work was done by the Bemba people who up to that stage had never seen a nail or a saw before. Bricks and roof tiles were made on site from the lakeside clay. Trees were cut down and sawn up for timber but cement had to be transported from the railhead at Broken Hill across the Congo pedicle, up the Luapula River on canoe and finally portered on somebodies head for the last stretch.
Gore-Brown got his first cattle from my father-in-law Frank Rumsey who had started ranching further north at Mbesuma near Chinsali. You can find the story of Rumsey and Thorton on www.nrzam.org.uk under misselaneous / people.
Cheers - Doug
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 18:22:19 (UTC)
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Tamm,
No I have no opinion about this. i was merely expressing the opinion a this official whom I know well. He is one of the most moderate Zambian Government Ministers..one who sincerely believes in Multi-racialism..and it is because of people like him that Zambia has become much more Democratic (with a free Market economy) than it was during KK's era. Now if someone like him expresses this opinion..I do listen! You wouldn't want someone like him to opt out of Politics would you...and have some despot like Mugabe replace him..or would you???
In any case.I would rather learn the proper ancestoral language(s) of an indigenous population rather than make up and use one which probably has very little linguistic value!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 17:42:22 (UTC)
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Zumla
I was just trying to cite an opinion expressed by a Government official.
You left out the bit that this chap was a highly postioned, and highly educated Zambia Government official. I usually consider opinions by such highly rated people as something that should be heard. But when such people start throwing histrical untruths and distortions, then it is up to us to challenge that. There was no discussion about slavery and immigration policies in the UK. The conversation was about this highly placed official saying that Fanagalo was a white mans invention used to issue instructions to blacks. That is patently untrue. Everyone knows that (except you it seems), and when such distortions/lies are spread, they should be challenged.
If the shoe was on the other foot, you might be accused of "baiting".
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 17:20:54 (UTC)
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Hi Hilton -
Thank you for that wonderful piece on EUro Englis which look like becoming more germanified than the real fake!!!
Regards
Kris
Kristien E. Massie (née Mostert, formerly Van Woenssel) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 12:32:32 (UTC)
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with all this talk about language brought to mind this little quip-------------
The European Commission has just announced an agreement
whereby English will be the official language of the EU
rather than German which was the other possibility. As part
of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that
English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted
a 5 year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly,
this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c"
will be dropped in favour of the"k". This should klear up
konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year,
when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This
will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be
ekspekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes
are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double
letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in
the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as
replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year,
ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and
similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of
leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer
vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi
to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen
ve vil tak over ze world!
Hilton Williams [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Brisbane, Australia
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 11:54:30 (UTC)
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I was just trying to cite an opinion expressed by a Government official. Perhaps we all are at fault as we "expatriates" never made an attempt to learn the local languages. None of the educational institutions prior to independence had a local language as an optional subject. I assume the very same who dismiss this concept of learning the language(of) of a host nation will very willingly throw their weight behind the UK Home Secretary who has now made the abilitity to understand and communicate in English a major requirement for gaining British Citizenship! Perhaps our indigenous Zambian friends on the GNR Board might want to express their opinion on Chilapalapa. It is better to learn and respect what another finds distasteful..than to tell him what is distasteful for him. Failing that one could find oneself in a pretty awkward situation.Just ask Mr Ron Atkinson (ex ITV football pundit)!!!
Anyone in the USA have an idea about what "language" was developed in the deep South to communicate with the Slaves? It would be interesting to know and draw comparisons.
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 11:05:10 (UTC)
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BETH
How lovely to hear from you.....yes I did hear about Mike...so sad when a school chum dies. Will deff em you tomorrow.....am off duty and must catch a train to Brighton.....find a soft spot on the pebbled beach and contemplate the infinitive!!!
NORTHERNERS
Has anyone read "The Africa House"....a biography of Stewart Gore-Browne? There is a passage on Sir Roy Welensky and his move to 24 Central Ave, BH. If anyone wants to read this book I will post it on to you
Anona Balloch [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 10:04:50 (UTC)
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Celebrating 10 years of democracy here today, my hus band who works on mines all over southern Africa says that Fanakalo is still the lingua franca of the mines and that black and white alike don't find it insulting - rather it is imperative for obvious reasons as pointed out by Doug.
I think it goes some way to bringing people together rather than dividing them - I wish that people would see the positives rather than the negatives.
God Bless Africa!
Jilly
Jill Aplin [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
South Africa
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 06:55:52 (UTC)
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Chris,
It wasn't a "trick question". I was just saying that one's memory sometimes stores pieces of useless information and there can be no way I would ever need to know the word for arm badge in English let alone Chikabanga. If I was pointing out a sergeant, say in our great ANZAC parades around Australia yesterday, I would say "Look at his stripes" or if he was an officer I would refer to his epaulettes!
Keith
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 03:22:55 (UTC)
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Keith Binns writes:
One of the most useless words in any language ever has to be "arm badge". Why would anybody ever use it?
This is surely a trick question? But if not, then please consider anyone in a military environment. What would the stripes on his right arm identifying him/her as a e.g. Sergeant be called? Arm badge, kabanga?? I cannot be certain what would make this "useless words".
Perhaps I have the bull by the udder, and may need some help.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 01:53:31 (UTC)
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Doug,
Somebody is bound to ask you this so it may as well be me! Please translate that final paragraph. I surprised myself by recognising a couple of the words. I laughed as I read it out loud to myself and it reminded me of being back in Zambia.
One of the most useless words in any language ever has to be "arm badge". Why would anybody ever use it? However it is one of the words I remember in Chikabanga - chingolongolo. I really have no idea why that word has remained with me all this time. Maybe it is because it is not unlike Chingola where I lived.
I liked the expression Copper Chopper on your profile. I'm surprised I never came across it before and yet it is such an obvious one.
All the best......
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 at 01:35:12 (UTC)
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Chris Tam hits it on the head. Without the Lingua Franca devised by the mining companies there would have been no way to communicate with the disparate labour force.
I spoke Shona and Sindebele and then learned Chibemba after moving north. Without Fanagalo all three would not have been of much use.
When I hear of some politician mouthing off about insults and degradation of the local population, I stop to think of the schools, doctors and hospitals that were dedicated for their use. I do wish someone would tell me some of the positives of colonialism......I could add to their collective wisdom
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 19:47:01 (UTC)
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Beth
That's great! I will email you.
Fanakalo was developed as the language on the mines because so many people from different language groups came to work on the mines and needed to understand one another, especialy for safety reasons. If there was danger somebody would shout "Baleka" and everybody would run away. In our new South Africa this would have to be repeated in the 11 official languages by which time the rock would have fallen and people would be dead.
Fanakalo could be understood throughout southern and central Africa in the same way that Swahili is understood throughout east Africa and most of the Congo. It was far more widely understood and usefull than any single indigenous language. We used to use it to talk with the Portugese in Mozambique.
kiSwahili the language used by the Arab slavers, that has a similar history to Fanakalo, being a simplified mix of east African languages and Arabic is strangely very popular among Africans and is still widely used in East Africa.
Unfortunately Fanakalo is resented by the educated southern African and is slowly dying out.
Skati tina madala, tina ifwa, lo kuluma ka lo Funikalo ena azi ifwa futi. Lo pikanin ka lo manje ikona funa funda kuluma lo Funakalo. Shala gashle.
Cheers - Doug
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 19:43:03 (UTC)
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From Zumla's posting:
Quote
He then explained to me that it was a language developed by the White man to address the Black man in colonial times. He further went on to state that the language was all to do with giving orders to Black workers and servants servants. For example, the term HAMBA LAPA...means come here...Furmiza..hurry up.....
Now I am no expert on African languages...can anyone on the GNR site throw some light on this?
END QUOTE
Yet another distortion. The language developed in the mining industry in South Africa. The mining companies imported laborers from all over the sub continent, all with their own languages/dialects. In order to communicate, mankind has a particular knack of massaging/adopting certain common sounding terms/phrases and collate these into a "new langauage". (Much like it is in e.g. Hawaii where cane labor from Japan, China, Phillipines, Portugal, Latin Countries, and local Hawaiians, came up with a "pidgin" English, which everybody seems to understand, and therefore able to communicate smoothly.) In SA, the mining industry, recognising the immense value of Fanagalo, taught it during training sessions for newly arrived mine workers. The language spread to neighboring Rhodesias/Nyasaland, Bechuanaland etc. as workers returned home.
To say that Fanagalo was a white man's invention to insult blacks is utter BS and yet another example of the re writing of African history.
Did you not know that?
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 18:48:59 (UTC)
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Ayub we had to have a language that we all could converse in and believe me without it it would have been chaotic, the gentle man you were chatting to sounds like a lot of standard sixes of there time who thought that they had the answer to every thing but actually knew nothing, if you see him again tell him that Hamba Lapa means go there not come here, which is boya lapa Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 18:28:29 (UTC)
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Recently I met up with a high ranking(and extremely highly educated) Zambian Government official whilst he was on a visit to the UK and funnily enough we talked about the various Zambian Languages and Dialects and were having a good laugh at my prounciations of words in Chinyanja. When the word CHILAPALAPA was mentioned he became serious and told me that it was insulting to address a Black Zambian in that language. He then explained to me that it was a language developed by the White man to address the Black man in colonial times. He further went on to state that the language was all to do with giving orders to Black workers and servants servants. For example, the term HAMBA LAPA...means come here...Furmiza..hurry up.....
Now I am no expert on African languages...can anyone on the GNR site throw some light on this?
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 17:43:52 (UTC)
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Philip
Loved your croc story. I always try to guess the outcome of an unfolding story and I was certain that your friend was going to try attaching the rope to a sleeping crocodile. Lucky you didn't find bangles in the stomach!
Arthur
I was researching a power point presentation I have to deliver at the Huguenot Tunnel on Wednesday and discovered that the original Great North Road started in Cape Town and went north via the Bains Kloof Pass to Ceres then joined the current National Road N1 on its way to Messina (now Musina) and Beitbridge. When the du Toits Kloof Pass was opened in 1948 that became the N1 and my source claimed that it also became the GNR. When the Huguenot Tunnel opened in 1988 the new 11 km shorter route became the N1 and thus the GNR. So for the next month I have responsibility for a part of the new GNR. I'd like to believe it but I'm sure that the old Bains Kloof route is the actual GNR envisaged by Rhodes. If you set out on the N1 in Cape Town you will eventually join the GNR in Zambia.
How far did the Great North Road actually go - I don't think it made it to Cairo. I'd appreciate some thoughts on the subject. I suppose this has been discussed ad nauseum in the past - sorry if that is the case. By the way Philip, the "nauseum" bit was thrown in especially for you in memory of your crocodile!
Cheers
David Gray [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
South Africa
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 17:33:55 (UTC)
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Anona,
Welcome! How fabulous to see your name on the GNR site. The last time we were together was at Mike Thies' after the very first reunion - 1986????? How are Trevor and Bev? I take it you know Mike died a few years ago? Please email me via the site - I'd love to hear from you again.
Linda - will email you from the office tomorrow. Alison and I met up in July last year (thanks so much for getting us together) - we both decided we hadn't changed at all in over 40+ years!! A very Belated Happy birthday to you - sorry I missed it but I was away in Mauritius.
Charlie C - I missed your birthday too - we were at a wedding down in Bloemfontein. However, did toast you along with David!!!! Hope you had a great day. Bumped into Val Brake on Tuesday evening and we are going to have a get together at 148 soon, with Sheilagh. Any chance you'll be up this way soon? Tony Sparks - if you're out there, please give me a shout. Peter F. is ignoring my calls.
Belated Happy Birthday to you too Maeve B. - Crumbs, aren't we getting on!!!! But thank heavens - you'll always be older than me, albeit a few months. Why don't we hear from you any more?
Jackie M - are you going to the Canadian get together??
We Broken Hillians need a representative there.
Doug - how are you?? There's a possiblity that I may be in your part of the world soon. Shall email you with dates and may be we can share a pint. Please give Francois a big hug for me.
Great news - DV. David, Shelly and I are holidaying in Zambia next year (Southern Luangwa) - Heather - isn't it time you bought some new shoes - we want to sit down with you and plan our holiday!!!!! If you see Mike, Doug or Vernon - please tell them to get their spare rooms ready. Thanks
Bit of totally useless information - Krissy McCauley is my daughters best friend - now living in Florida. She misses her terribly.
'later
Elspeth Lloyd (née Robertson) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Blairgowrie, Johannesburg, South Africa
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 14:59:51 (UTC)
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Gray Branfield,a friend who spent a good few days on the Kafue at the River Lure with me eight years back was tragically killed in Iraq.
The call of the fish eagle shall bring to mind the laughter we shared both on the Zambezi and Kafue.
The setting sun over the mighty plains of Senanga brings the radiance of your aura.
Goodbye my friend......and save some fish for me on the rivers up there.....you did not do it down here
Chris Swart [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Kitwe, Zambia
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 14:19:41 (UTC)
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Ti'jean,
or Johnny in french.
And me old mate, Doug.
In my limited knowledge of isiZulu, after one year of it at Wits in the 60's, one of the the things that I have retained was the 'proper' pronunciation of some of the sounds, as taught by the Zulu prof.
The x and the q and the h etc. The h is not really 'sh' but more in the back of the throat so that it comes out like a throat-clearing exercise. The 'x' is a sideways click of the inner cheek, the 'q' is a labial tongue click and so on. blah blah.
And don't get onto to the San languges! ! !
Anyhowsomever, it all is subject to modification in english - the one language that appropriates words from many languages and then pronounces them in all sorts of fashions, viz Scots and Australian to mention only a few.
All interesting and trust the GNR to provoke debate.
eenuff sed.
Bill
William Knott [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 13:57:57 (UTC)
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Shaw used to write about the common English word "ghoti", as in "ghoti and chips". His reasoning was that "gh" is pronounced "f" in "enough", "o" as "i" in "women" and "ti" as "sh" in "station". So, ghoti and chips is another way of writing fich and chips.
Peter Bromwich [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Valderrobres, Teruel, Spain
Monday, April 26, 2004 at 07:13:39 (UTC)
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Here is a link to a recent article about malaria treatment in Zambia:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200404220404.html
Chandru Krishna [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Rockville, Maryland, United States
Sunday, April 25, 2004 at 21:43:38 (UTC)
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Johnny,
Bill is right in isiZulu to say 'Hamba Kahle'. You are also almost right in Fanagalo. I have just checked my Fanagalo dictionary and it says goodbye is 'Hamba Gahle. Both versions would be said as 'Hamba Gashly' as you stated.
There is a funny thing in many southern african languages in that the G is pronounced and often written as a K or maybe it's vice-versa. Even in Fanagalo / Fanakalo this is heard. Another example is the Zulu name for Durban. Some write Thekwini as Thegwini. The Twana seem to solve the problem by writing both letters as in Kgotla.
Further why do they omit the s if Kahle is pronounced Gashle(y). How come a language that was only written down for the first time maybe 150 years ago is not spelt phoneticly. It must be the fault of the missionaries who were the first to seriously study the african languages. Many of then we Germans. You can also find this nonsense in Zambia where the sound Ch is written as C, for example Cinyanja, Cibemba.
Fanakolo, in Rhodesia called Chilapalapa, and in Zambia called Chikabanga was used on the mines as a simplified language that was easier for everybody to understand.
English is even worse. We say 'nyf' but write it as 'knife' which phonetically should be pronounced kuniffy. Visit freespeling.com ( with 1 L).
The old story goes about why the English cricket team were so keen to visit South Africa. They had heard that we have Fanny Galore!
Cheers - Doug
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Sunday, April 25, 2004 at 20:53:34 (UTC)
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Dear Billy no I did not no that your example and emphasis on the words meant the same as my fanagalo and for all I could speak a smattering of some of the tribal chatter the main one we ever used was fanagalo and amba gashly was spelt by me exactly as it sounded for go slowly/carefully will any miner bear me out? Johnny.
You should be pleased you canot have any racing where you are after Saterdays results.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Sunday, April 25, 2004 at 19:23:13 (UTC)
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Hi Philip,
I remember Mike Lazarevic's farm. Mike used to manufacture wire-cut bricks, some of which we used to build the houses below 23rd Avenue in Nkana. The pug-mill for the clay was driven by a water wheel, one of two I seem to recall. The clay pits were going to be used for breeding fish, but whether this became a reality I don't know.
Briad Coase and I used to do farm patrols from Mindola Police Substation in 1954 and the visit to Mike's farm was usually left until last as Mike was a very generous welcoming host.
Regards, Mike
Mike Wilson [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Dawlish, Devon, United Kingdom
Sunday, April 25, 2004 at 17:27:11 (UTC)
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Sorry campers about the bum info on the gee gees,
Gin Palace did finish 3rd but they had backed it down from 10/1 to 9/2 favourite, Scot mail boy ran a good race for 3/4 of the distance but then faded away, they showed one man on the rails watching the race who stood to win 1.6 million if it had won, some competition he was in I think, better luck next time Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Sunday, April 25, 2004 at 10:34:07 (UTC)
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Re:names of trees
When I was expecting my fifth and last baby, after a run of 3 boys, I gently toyed with girl's names, and the only two that appealed were Acacia, and Cassia. I ended up letting the children name the new arrival, Jemima-Jayne Acacia. When researching the origins of "Jemima", I discovered that she was a daughter of Job, and so was Cassia. We rejected our then two year olds pleas for us to call the pooey new baby "Dinosaur Electric"; now she is l5 months old we sometimes wonder if Dinosaur Electric would not have been an apt name for her. She is quite wild and active, and since another wonderful parcel of kudo biltong arrived from my mom in capetown, she has learnt how to say "biltong" and point to the cupboard where I store it. Thanks to all my loyal friends "darn sarf" who send me regular parcels of pro-nutro, and Ina Paarmans sauces, you keep me sane!
Ciao, Megz
Meg Rybicki (formerly Margaret) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Mullanyduff, Co Leitrim, Ireland
Saturday, April 24, 2004 at 23:54:57 (UTC)
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Northerners !
I dropped Peter Bennett a line a few days ago as I had been watching his travel reports on his website which suddenly seemed to have stopped back in December last year, I was concerned a little that he was OK.
You'll all be glad to hear that he's fine and has even set off on another adventure in Africa. I'm sure he won't mind if I paste his reply to me below.
Arthur,
Good to hear from you. I got back to London on 22 December - after 100 days on the road!
In February I set off to cross Africa west to east. I have been able to do most of it overland but I had to fly from N'Djamena to Khartoum and tonight I fly on to Asmara for a week or so before flying back to UK.
My diary website text is up to date as far as Ethiopia but that means there is still Sudan and Egypt to add from Dec 2003... and then of course a whole new chapter on the "Sahel Sojourn".
I am returning to Zanzibar this summer to work on the film festival and after that I have no definite plans. You never know it may even be time to settle down and go back to work!
Thanks for checking up on me, best wishes to you and all at GNR
Peter
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