Northern Rhodesians Worldwide
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Message Board
Peter,I publicly accept that yes the northern skies are brilliant, fantastic, etc....and I concede that they may be better than that of the southern skies, though I have never been to Antartica to see the skies down there. : )
Ali
oh nearly forgot .........the photos are incredible.......thank you for sharing them with me.
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 23:54:41 (UTC)
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Ayub
"He only does it to annoy because he knows it teases." It's a wind up. If you want a chuckle, he's actually classifiable as being in a minority.
For the record I do know the humanitarian contribution you make. I've wanted to tell the GNR and you've given me a good opportunity.
Ayub and his wife facilitate his brother's work on the non-medical research and administrative side, organising the pricing and shipment of medicines, funding, recruiting funding sources and the like.
I have personally experienced his kindness with Adesi and her father Boniface Banda at Makungwa ADP near Chipata. Adesi is just a young Chewa teen sponsored through World Vision. So far, so good. She wrote to me this year to say her father is very ill. Some may remember I had asked on the GNR if they knew of doctors in Chipata area. Brothers Ali and Ayub responded. Since they weren't due to be in Zambia at that time, they gave me the direct mobile phone number of the Medical Director of the University of Zambia Teaching hospital, a medical colleague of Ali's and contacted him for me. He agreed to see Boniface free of charge. Heather Chalcraft also got involved offering to organize transport and accommodation if we got Boniface down to Lusaka. She contacted Lusaka office trying to get details. There was also a doctor in Chipata the Zumlas put us in touch with as a first step and Heather called him for me and he was agreeable to seeing Boniface. All pretty special, huh?
The only fly in the ointment was World Vision and their frikkin' do everything via channels and red tape. We had to let them take over the reins and our resources and they are moving about as fast as molasses. I have to liaise with a woman in the U.S. who has to wait on a report from Zambia on what is being accomplished or forget offering any extra aid at all. You should have "heard" Heather on the subject. She was, understandably, ready to take off the heads of a dozen dozy beaurocrats just as a first step. World Vision has another week to work on this. We're mentally about ready to mount a guerrilla operation.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 23:21:24 (UTC)
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Arthur,
Hear, hear!
Craig Hartnett [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 22:41:22 (UTC)
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Arthur, trying very hard:
Why did the cat crap under the table there?
If you were to have presented that answer to my old Afriks teacher at Guinea Fowl, you would have been banished to a 3 week stint in Onderbroekfontein, which is only about 750 miles from Pofadder.
Yislaaik, ou boeta, some slopie is sommer going to frow you wiff a stone.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 21:30:39 (UTC)
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Just 'cos our parents said we weren't allowed to swim in the sea because of possible sharks (ha ha) did that ever stop us? I can remember swimming at (I think) Margate, being caught in a back tow - is that the term? and being left hanging on the shark nets until being rescued by the life guards (swoon swoon). They were some hunks who were never ever going to notice the likes of me! But scary scary, was knowing that those nets - that I, amongst others, was hanging onto for dear life, only went down so far. And if I could have been swept out to sea under that net, what could have come under....
Lizd [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 21:22:26 (UTC)
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Northerners !
Saw these old Ndola postcards on eBay Uk just now. There are 3 other sets for sale too.
I'll try and bid for and get them for the site, at times like these I wish the GNR had central fund to acquire important memorabilia such as this. Maybe one day.
We have had very interesting debates this last month or so, though I see some of you are becoming a little personal and are beginning to drift. If you wish to get personal I would respectively request that you resort to private e-mail and not begin to abuse this website. We used to kick the record player when the needle got stuck in the groove,
Bob Worrill
Thanks for reminding me of some of the best holidays we ever had as kids. I can also remember the Blue Lagoon at Ramsgate - no waterskiing for us unfortunately, but there were billions of tropical fish that swum around your legs when you waded out into the shallow lagoon. Also spent whole days in the kids pool in Margate, we were kept away from swimming in the sea, when our parents were around, the surf was great and the ocean so blue. Also going fishing for shad (I think that's what they called them) off the little pier. We stopped in a small complex of thatched huts just behind there up the slope of the shore. Yes, bananas, 1/- for 50 then, and real pineapples, I can smell them now, and also the Indian Ocean. Just remembering the whole thing does my head in, from setting off from Nkana and all the memories of the places we passed through and stopped at along the way are some of the best of my life. Maybe I'll write up on that sometime.
Chris
Ok
Why did the cat crap under the table there?
Arthur
Arthur Steevens [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Stockport, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 21:03:36 (UTC)
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Tea House of the Blue Lagoon. Isn't that where they made the best ever waffles with maple syrup and lashings of cream...? I should have weighed 100lbs more than I did! Toooo divine those waffles were. Or maybe I was just a greedy teenager. Palm Court - was that the 'in' place in Margate? Something like that. And every year, residents of each hotel wore something to identify them. Lucky you if you were at one of the big hotels. Not so good if you were staying in one of the non descript ones - oh my God, you had no identity. How awful for a teenager. The shame, the shame of not conforming!
Lizd [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 20:35:38 (UTC)
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Doug Grewar,
"The sardine run", I had completely forgotten that such a phenomena existed until I read your post. I went to Margate for holidays every two years from 1956 until 1967, for some of the happiest times of my life. I saw the advent of the shark nets and also what got caught up in them. I remember the Indian fishermen using kites to get their lines right out to sea. I made many copies of those kites when I got back to Ndola, Zambia, and flew them happily in Kansenji park, starting a minor fad (craze) for a while, does anyone remember that? We used to stay in "Seabrook Flats", the "Kings View" was behind us, on the top floor in the same flat number every time, what a view. The first time we went I think we stayed in Permula Flats (spelling) in 1956. I remember the Hibiscus parade and the beauty shows. There was an old bus where you could buy hamburgers, and the Twentith Century Fox cinema. Almost no billboard advertising, except for the strange train warning signs. Lots of sugar cane plants and pineapples. the "Mountain Inn" on the way down just outside of Louis Trichard (spelling). A secluded hotel which had a stream running through the gardens where you could have a cold coke in intimate surroundings, Mum and Dad used to love that place, I can't remember the name and the "Teahouse of the Blue Lagoon" in Ramsgate, also a place where you could waterski behind powerful motorboats on flat boards in a lagoon just off the sea, a few miles from Margate.
What a happy time that was for me,
"If I could only turn back time"
Bob.
Robert Worrill [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Christchurch, New Zealand
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 20:15:11 (UTC)
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Glen,
Try telling that to those people who are suffering in Zimbabwe at the moment!According to your logic..protest a little and than remain silent..and hope for some Divine intervention to sort things out! God help the people of Zimbabwe if they follow your advice..or is it Shakespeare's? Try making yourself useful by spending some time writing to your local MP (as Tina suggested earlier)urging him or her to start doing something about Zimbabwe instead of waiting for a magic wand to appear!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 18:44:21 (UTC)
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Colin
I have just read that Zambia expects to earn US$40 million from 30 million kilograms of tobacco grown on 15,000 hectares. It is planned to boost this to 50, 000 hectares by 2008. That is about 2000 Kg per hectare.
I am used to the old measurements of pound per acre. According to my engineers handbook 1 Kg = 2.2046 lb and 1 Hectare = 2.471 acres. This would give a yield of 1784 lbs / acre on my tiki susu calakulator. Check my calcs but it sounds pretty good?
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 18:39:04 (UTC)
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Guess I have to post this once again . . . .
Ayub -
"Protest too much" comes from Hamlet by William Shakespeare; the Queen speaking: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Note: people do not usually use the word "methinks" when they are speaking English today.) To "protest too much" is to insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what you are saying. Example: "Do you think he is telling the truth?" Answer: "I think he protests too much."
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 18:21:21 (UTC)
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Glen
For your information Prof Ali zumla is my younger brother and we all work as a family unit. We all have contribute and have contributed to the Centre in our ways..all of us! Who the hell are you to suggest otherwise!Just shows you what an ignorant person you are! Pity you never had such compassion instilled in you! Bet you..your contribution to Zambia is ZILTCH...apart from slagging the country and its people. What a shame! By the way the Prof spends four months in a year in Lusaka and we still have our family home there! And this country has never given me handouts! So don't even dare suggest that! We work hard ! So stop this nonsense! You stench this board with your "racial " snipes! Think you better get your facts right before "insulting" people on this board. Get of your backside and go sponsor a Zambian child! You are nothing but an armchair critic whose argument is clouded in putting the Zambian people down. Shame!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 18:17:58 (UTC)
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Chris
I think those big money interests that are buying up Zim shares are counting on a regime change. Rather them than me.
Northerners
To expand on the story about there being no development in the pre-colonial years in sub - Saharan Africa, Australia and North America; the obvious question is - why? Years ago I might have answered that the indigenous were incapable. However we have the example in the GNR of several indigenous Zambians who despite the deficiencies of the colonial education system have managed to get through University and excel overseas in competitive situations by attaining high success in educational, administrative, and (accountancy) business situations in the USA, Canada, and London, UK respectively. Anyone could be proud of his or her achievements but coming from their backgrounds it is little short of a miracle. So the guys are capable. So what was the reason for lack of developments?
My theory is that it had to do with population pressure in the developed countries where people were forced to compete for limited resources. This led to people having to combine into ever-bigger groups to fight for their share. This led to more effective administration systems, which enabled the building of such things as the pyramids. Thus begun the subjugation of the many to the whims of the few.
In Africa the population was largely kept in check by diseases and if the neighbors proved troublesome one could just up sticks and move away into the next empty valley. We only see some sort of large-scale organization in Shaka Zulu's time when the black migration had reached the southern seas and there was nowhere else to move. The population pressure built up and Shaka moved in with his innovative style of warfare and administration. We often hear of the Corsican, Napoleon Bonaparte referred to as a white Shaka Zulu (or was it the other way round)?
I wonder who was happier; the Africans sitting in the shade of their huts, sipping their kombote or marula, counting the horns of their cattle, while their wives toiled in the gardens; or the Egyptians sweating their guts out under the crack of the overseer's whip dragging great hunks of rock up a slope to gratify some incestuous pharaoh’s ego. These chaps actually got confused and thought that they were Gods, just like some of our corporate bloodsuckers today.
More developed is not necessarily happier as the many yuppies that are opting out of the rat race witnesses.
By the way what Ali is chuckling about is that I made up a well padded envelope to send her a CD and then forgot to put the CD inside, ergo an envelope full of African air! The full envelope should arrive soon Ali. I must be ready for the compost heap!
We have had some unexpected but very welcome rain in Vryheid breaking 3 months drought of cool but sunny days. The Sardine run has started at the coast and the famous Durban July horserace is coming soon. Today the mid-winter temperature in Durban is 24c. Oh to be in Durban, now that winter's here!
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 18:01:49 (UTC)
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Ayub - The "Zumla" contribution is Dr. Alimuddin Zumla’s contribution - you're not suggesting in any way that you deserve credit for the wonderful work this man has done just because you have the same last name, are you? Lest you forget, my last name is Drake – Geez, what does that mean? If I (yes me, Glen!) hadn’t thrashed the Spanish Armada you wouldn’t be living in Manchester? Alimuddin doesn’t live in Zambia either, does he? He lives in London, does he not? Let's see, you live in Manchester and he in London . . . . . . . . . . . . . And even if you had an “other half” willing to re-locate to Zambia, it is a fair bet that neither of you would want to stay there under current conditions. So quit your excuses and stop biting the hand that feeds you. It continues to amaze me that much of your criticism seems to be directed against the very society of which you are now part. It should be against the corrupt nationalists (substitute the word racists) in Black ruled African countries that are bent on personal gain for themselves and those that keep them in power.
Therein lies the difference between you and some other GNR contributors – some of us really do look at Zambia, as Keith Binns so very aptly put in his analogy, as “our” child– see his Tuesday, June 29, 2004 posting. The trouble started when the Colonial Foster parents of Northern Rhodesia returned it to it’s REAL parents who wasted little time renaming it Zambia and then promptly abused it – and they continue to do so. And just like you Ayub, making excuses, the Real parents sit on their backsides and complain about the Foster parents having RAPED (yes that’s the word they use) the child before they were given it back. Well, perhaps with the HIV/Aids stats being at such a high level in Zambia, one needs to ask whether or not the Real parents have taken rape to the next level. What are they doing? Sodomising the child? Let us hope that Dr. Alimuddin Zumla’s work, afforded him by the ousted Foster parents and other non-African well wishers, goes some way to salvage some of the child’s future.
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 17:44:31 (UTC)
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Peter
You were so very lucky having such a glorious view of the northern skies with such a minimum of light pollution. I bet it was wonderful viewing and yes, any of those pictures please. All that fills my mind celestially during my six months in the remote fjords of north western Iceland were the times watching the great shifting curtains of the northern lights which I couldn't get enough of.
I think they say you can see a couple more of the brightest objects in the southern hemisphere? Actually in terms of celestial objects you can technically see all of the actual Zodiac from both hemispheres at different times of the year and "upside down" to eachother specially the further towards the equator you go, but in reality bunches get lost in the horizon. I think the Megellanic clouds are solely a southern hemisphere viewing features I s'pose sort of the south's answer to the geat spiral in Andromeda.
But it all comes down to clarity of conditions, and various atmospheric pollutions, including African dust. I would love a gander at those arctic skies through your eyes.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 17:35:37 (UTC)
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Hi Ali,
Your quote about life being a journey reminded me of the following:-
"The journey home is never a direct route; it is, in fact, always circuitous, and somewhere along the way, we discover that the journey is more significant than the destination, and that the people we meet along the way will be the travelling companions of our memories forever."
Mike
Mike Wilson [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Dawlish, Devon, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 16:47:30 (UTC)
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Ayub: Your family's contribution is ,to say the least, admirable. What is especially poignant, is the fact that the funding is being administered in a proper and accountable manner. This only re-inforces my previous comments regarding the "Wa-Benzi" and the blatant theft of so-called "Loans" . Pity your administrators weren't involved years ago. Maybe, just maybe, we would know where all the money went. I like the term "Misappropriation", a politically correct expression if ever I heard one.
P.S. I really can say nice things when the situation warrants it.
Ken Fernie [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Irvine, California, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 15:00:16 (UTC)
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Today at the self-nurturing workshop I attend we had a session on humour , rather a good session........at the end we were given this handout.........I don't think there was a dry eye left in the room.......please read.
much love
Ali
This life isn't serious. It's a comedy. It's an awesomely beautiful journey.. But it certainly isn't serious. Serious is an egotistical concept: it comes form several factors. One is insecurity, another is self-importance, whereby insignificant people use seriousness to make themselves seem more than they actually are. Sometimes seriousness is used as a manipulation, or as a way of imposing from above on people that one considers inferior. With seriousness comes a lot of judgment and a lack of light and laughter and god force. It is a very stony path to take.
Sometimes seriousness reflects a temperament that is less than gracious and magnanimous to others.It can be a form of intellectual snobbery. You can tell serious people a mile off - they walk funny. The cheeks of their bum are puckered like they are holding on to a carrot. I think they feel selected by god to hold a carrot up their rear end until death. That's why you always see carrots growing near the graves of serious people. If you are too serious,start to laugh a lot, play, hang out with children, put on silly clothes, do light-hearted things and cut people a lot of slack, including yourself. Become big in your feelings, and seriousness melts in the light of your heart's newfound goodness.
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 14:20:03 (UTC)
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Chris..
I can go back to Zambia whenever I feel like. I was sent here by my late parents for further education and after graduating I got married and settled here. My other half was unfortunately not willing to go and live in Africa! However our connections with Zambia are very strong and if you ever get a chance to visit Zambia then do go and see the largest HIV/TB research centre set up anywhere in Africa (at the UTH)..and simply ask those administering it..who set it up? That is the Zumla contribution to Zambia! For your information it is tightly controlled and all its financial affairs are well regulated and mantained (from here)...and funding for the Centre runs into millions..obtained mainly from various World bodies, Agencies,Donations, etc It is a prime example of a corrupt-free Body, well-administered and well-regulated! As to the contribution my late father made to helping fund the education (abroad) of promising young Zambian students..I could write a few pages on that. You know my dad did stand for elections as an Independent candidate in 1964..unfortunately he did not win and there ended his brief flirtation with politics! He had many friends and did know the late Sir Roy Welensky..also remember him telling us how the late Joshua Nkomo would call on him...when he was short in his pocket! He always taught us that the family should come first..then everything (including Politics) comes after. You will be surprised to learn taht he owned a Tobacco farm in Fort Jameson in the 1950's. Ill-health made him go to the City and his Farm was "siezed" by squatters! It was not until about 1996 that a Law was passed which allowed for compensation claims to be made for any illegal land siezures in Zambia.. that my dad and uncle managed to recoup some money from their 10,000 acres!
You know Chris there are many things wrong in Zambia..always have been. Many times we all have lived in fear. But then the best way is to look at the positives and work on them. It is a Third world country and things move slowly..sometimes they will not move unless you flash a Kwacha or more! Thats how things have always been! We all get embroiled in this web! No one denies the high levels of mismanagement,corruption...all Races have got entangled in this when it comes to Zambia.But then just because the leaders have "ruined" the country's potential ...does not mean that all Zambians are like that. Compared to all the indeginous populations of Sub-Saharan Africa, (from my experience anyway), the majority of those who live in Zambia are the most peaceful and welcoming. Most crimes involving weapons are committed by Nationals of surrounding countries. But then crime is everywhere. Lusaka is probably more safer than,say,Joberg. That is how Zambia is today...better than what it was a decade ago..you can now buy your toothpaste..and imported biscuits.......State Control of the Economy has been reduced....and for those who drink, Castle is still there!. Yes, corruption is still rife.But then it is a Human trait..always will be..everywhere!
You know if we all keep on bearing grudges for past grievences....attitudes will never change. Perhaps we all need to learn from the Grand Old man...Nelson Mandala.. forgive and try and forget..and move on and try and think positive and make your contribution to Zambia...however small it may be!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 10:03:04 (UTC)
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Keith Binns, a huge thank you for your kind offer.....amazing this GNR family...full of kindness.!!
Tina , Peter.The Southern skies are the best....in the middle of the south of the South Island..away from all the city lights , the skies are overflowing with stars etc......and in the middle of the desert of the Goldfields of Western Australia in the dead of night...you can't ask for anything better than what you see in the skies.....bliss........oh and I have always been told that under the African skies are a blissful wonder as well............Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 09:41:49 (UTC)
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If I may go back to the posting by Ken Fernie on 23rd he mentiond one Bob Anderson, and though I was not particularly into the Theatre I did know Bob he was with Montgomerie Oldfied and Kirby, I as working with Peter Richards and Parntners and was involved in a lot of the TTI developments that both had the commissions for, wonderfull days of work in Kasama and Mansa. I am visiting Scotland in the week begining 21st August, we will be visiting another old friend from Ndola in the Dundee area, if anybody knows how to contact Bob I would love to make contact whilst I am in the region, so Ken or for that matter if you can help please E-mail me. Incidently talking about that time, and the LTC I have a wonderfull tale to tell about Nick Montgomerie and a couple of back packers visiting one evening when Nick myself and Clive Ward were having a sundowner, unfortunately it is not a tale I can tell on this site but it was up to Nicks normal high standards of putting people in their place and managing to impress all and sundry at the same time!
Frank.
Frank Yoxall [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Woking, Surrey, England, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 09:05:00 (UTC)
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From Tina...
"Does nostalgia increase the fact that Northern Hemisphere night skies seem tame compared to Southern Hemisphere ones?"
I beg to differ :) !!!!
If you or anyone else sends me your e-mail address I will send you some sky photos of Yukon - where I lived for 10 years.
Also due to the cold, the night skies were much brighter than those in Northern Rhodesia.
Peter Dielissen [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 08:36:48 (UTC)
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Frank,
Something else we have in common from the past is 1946 !!!
Al the best,
Keith
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 07:20:30 (UTC)
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Kieth,
Great response, very interesting reading, I too remember doing such things as a 22 year old teacher at Kansenji Secondary school in Ndola, one memorable trip across the border to Sakania, ostensibly to fill up with petrol! particularly comes to mind,but the tale is not for telling here. Good comments too from Pappy, it does me good to read that there are others who cherish their memories of the wonderful time and place we shared even if seperately. Keep it going!
Frank.
Frank Yoxall [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Woking, Surrey, England, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 07:00:33 (UTC)
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Frank, Pappy, Doug, Colin,
Thanks for the various responses to my musings.
I could only speak of my own experiences and as a young innocent graduate engineer straight out of uni in UK was carefully sheltered by the mammoth Anglo-American Corporation in a structured work environment with a good salary, house, health cover, paid leave and other essentials provided. I couldn’t for a minute compare that to being a farmer where the whole investment is your own and you are at the mercy of the market, the weather, the politics, the work-force and so many other factors outside your own control.
We were discouraged from fraternising with the local population and indeed the sports and recreation clubs where we all recreated were strictly for whites only. All the fresh faced graduate engineers were given houses in Second Street (Chingola) and we socialised together there or separately (with other whites) in the club or clubs of your choice. There was very little interaction with the locals on the mine. The closest in my case was almost 3rd party as the foreman, or whoever had the unfortunate job of looking after the baby engineers, instructed or advised the workforce labourers, mechanics, tea-boys and the like.
I’m happy to admit now, in the safety net of the passage of 32 years, the anonymity of the internet and maybe a lot of maturity of our present day thinking that I and a few pommy mates from Second Street occasionally ventured to the African township late at night after the BCEL or the rugby club had closed. We enjoyed the cold beers, the welcome from the astonished Zambians at seeing white faces, the frenetic African music which was played at giga decibels and the pulsating atmosphere. It was daring, exciting, and most definitely NOT the done thing. We all swore each other to secrecy and never was a word of these adventures mentioned at work or back in the normal clubs. It really was good fun. So too were the visits across the border to Lubumbashi as I mentioned in my first posting on this site (22 March 2004). My other interaction with locals was during a 4 week outward bound course in the far north east of Zambia. Rick Skelton and myself were the only two whites amongst 40 young guys on that challenging month. Apart from those occasions though there was very little mixing. Sad isn't it?
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 06:37:02 (UTC)
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Thanks Gwyneth.
Great hey Ali?
Does nostalgia increase the fact that Northern Hemisphere night skies seem tame compared to Southern Hemisphere ones? You folks must have wonderful sky shows in Australia and Africa. One just thanks one's lucky stars (sorry) that quite a few things can be seen in both hemispheres from a different angle.
But not the circumpolar ones.
Such strong childhood memories of being introduced to my Dad's well loved celestial friends. He knew them very well. I don't. He had his favourites. Certain star and constellation names I will always hear in his voice: Vega, Cygnus, Vela, Puppis. Canopus, Centaurus with all its wonders and its pointers to the Southern Cross, the Megellanic clouds, the richness of the southern band of Milky Way. The eclipsing binary Al Gol in Perseus.
Gwyneth you struck such a chord. There is this power and light and fire in the all-encompassing bowl of the night sky that seems to reach out to absorb you into itself. You seem to be just a collection of puny atoms that can "hear" the hiss of the radio waves from across the universe and feel them passing through you. And going outside to see the first manmade space hardware passing over? "Telstar" is playing in my head.
At the latitude of Cancun and Jamaica in Spring apparently you can easily see the Pole Star and the Southern Cross in the same sky.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 02:44:23 (UTC)
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Sorry Keith, the less pleasant memories do not fade. (re your reason why the GNR site is so popular). Who in the tobacco farming business could ever forget the lot of an Assistant Manager in those times, six days a week from Vuka Madoda till sunset and Sunday spent going round the lands being pointing out the faults and mistakes made during the week and what was to be done the following week. Holidays were spent at a time and place decided by the RRR, at least we were not charged for board and lodgings. Wondering if I would get help in time from a snake bite in the fields which hurt like hell and ending up in hospital with malaria more than once! Perhaps I am accident prone! There were not many good times in the bush compared with the cities, but I was happier where I was. Would gladly exchange those times for now with all the hassle of modern day living. Regards Colin.
Colin Munro [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Oban, Scotland, United Kingdom
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 01:52:02 (UTC)
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Hey Doug,
Welcome back from Swaziland. I had an Uncle and Aunt live in Mbabane in the late 50's and visted there a number of times. Very pretty place as I recall.
Your recommendation for Zim investments. Always an intriguing thought, but only for a brief moment. Consider this very simple proposition. A Zim company invites me to invest in them with a "guaranteed" return of 50%pa. Sounds good so far. And so off I go to the races with US$10,000 and have been guaranteed a 50% return on my mali.
US$10,000 converted to Z$ at the official rate of 5,350 equals Z$53,500,000
Z$53,500,000 at 50% pa for one year grows to $80,250,000
In the meantime, the Z$ has further devalued to perhaps 6,000 or even 7,000 (not unrealistic thinking?)
Z$80,250,000 back into USD at say 7,000 equals US$11,464, or a 14.64%. Better than a kick in the shorts I guess, but why live with all that risk (of further devaluation, confiscation, blocked funds, etc. etc. I think I will stick with the New York Stock Exchange thank you.
Notwithstanding the above, investors in SA are far closer to the coal face than I am. And I could easily see a lot of interest in investments North of the Limpopo. But they will also be watching for the kinds of possibilities outlined above. Exchange risk and political risk are 2 areas I try to avaoid at all times.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 01:20:46 (UTC)
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Gwyneth Thomas
What a fantastic site.......thanks very much...........Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 00:47:06 (UTC)
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Dougie!!!
The bag of fresh African air has arrived ........thank you so much..........giggles
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Wednesday, June 30, 2004 at 00:05:21 (UTC)
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Zumla,
Why is not possible for you to accept the truth? You have a habit of distorting the truth, and when challenged, you start hurling insults. Would you care to tell us why you left Zambia, and under what circumstances? Did you leave voluntarily? Are you able to go back? and if so, why don't you make it happen? These questions are not difficult.
Face the reality. And it has nothing to do with the beauty of the country.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 21:45:49 (UTC)
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Wow! what a lot of postings!
Gill
Welcome back! Nice to her from you again.
Keith
I enjoyed your wonderings about what makes NRZAM special. It is a question I have often wondered about. I wish we had a similar site for Swaziland. Don't say I must start one; my talents are too limited.
Colin
Thanks for the feedback. As Jim Reeves said, "A stranger is just a friend you do not know". I was actualy begining to think that my calling Tony Blair "Mittal's errand boy" had annoyed you seeing as he is of Scots origin. I have the greatest of respect for Tony. I was just illustrating the corruptive power of great wealth.
I used to love working with 'John Deere' especialy going to the plowing competitions. There is a place called Chikurubi on the way to Gwelo which is renown for its extremely hard red soils. Case and International didn't do so bad, Ford just scrathed the surface, but our John Deere 730 with a 5 disc drawn (not mounted) plow just dropped in like a hot knife through butter and turned over perfect 12" deep furrows in the rock hard soil. It is always comical to watch the farmers following behind hopping into and out of the furrow. The other companies just packed up and left without even trying.
Linda
Great to hear you finally got the CD. The popcorn must be some sort of promotion.
Ayub
You may well be right about the poor quality of education. However if there had been no colonial occupation there would have been zero school and therefore zero graduates.
When I hear people whinging about the 300 years of colonialism I ask them what was achieved by the black Africans during the previous 3000 years. India built the Taj Mahal; the Egyptians under their Greek pharoahs, the ptolemnies, built the pyramids; the Arabs invented maths; the Chinese built a great wall and invented gunpowder and spaghetti; the Greeks built the Parthenon and numerous tearooms; the Romans built the Coliseum and the Basilica of Saint Peter; the Iraqis built the hanging gardens of Babylon and WMD's (according to Bushy); the Aztecs built pyramids; and so on. But what is in sub-saharan Africa. Zimbabwe ruins? This is not much better than a glorified cattle kraal and may well have been built by an earlier colonizer.
This is not racialisn it is realism.
The only other continents which failed to develop beyond the stone age (pre-colonization) were North America and Australia.
Chris
There is a suprising number of South African companies who are now investing in Zimbabwe mostly by buying shares in existing companies while they are dirt cheap.
This is a tip for you where to invest while things are still cheap. Give it 2 years and we will talk again.
Property prices in South Africa have doubled in the last couple of years and are still rising fast. Everybody is moaning about the hoards of foriegners (Brits, Germans, etc) who are flocking in to buy up property. Some sort of a vote of confidence maybe? The Rand continues to strengthen.
I took a 600 kilometre circular drive through Swaziland today. What a beautifull country and what a lot of development going on there. Probably all on Aid money of course but that makes it all the sweeter. Just think the next time Uncle Sam screws you for taxes, some of it is going to Swaziland and Zambia to built beatifull roads for the wa-benzi to drive on.
Oh well, that's enough stirring for one day!
Johnny
Sorry to hear about the boats!
Doug Grewar [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Vryheid, Natal, South Africa
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 21:31:49 (UTC)
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Ayub
British National Party actually, not that it makes much difference but facts should be accurate if one's opinion is to earn respect.
Ian
Ian Singer [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 21:22:01 (UTC)
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Tamm,
If you do not have anything positive to say about Zambia then I do wonder what the heck are you doing on this board. Your experiences in Zambia are painful...forget about Zambia...put it behind you.It seems the very word Zambia makes you sick! After all ,you wouldn't want to discuss a toilet would you? What the heck you doing talking crap all the time about such a beautiful country.
By the way BNP..stands for British Nazi Party!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 21:04:13 (UTC)
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I promised myself that I would never write this, but here goes.The "honeymoon" after Independence lasted a lot longer than most people are aware. Only but a few weeks after the initial euphoria, we had law-abiding folks, who never had so much as a traffic ticket, being deported, simply because their child (in a famous incident), pencilled a moustache on Kaunda's face in the newspaper. Then we had the "Do you know who I am?" syndrome.And so on, and so on. I myself was served a deportation notice in '73, simply for refusing credit to a certain person, following laid-down Company procedures. I was fortunate enough to have access to certain people, who had the notice rescinded - I was just lucky. Then we had the theft of plots (mainly in Lsaka's Roma Township) because Kaunda didn't think it was a good idea for (mainly) whites to own these unless they were building on them. Here's a man whose Government literally stole Simon Hobday's farm in Mazabuka, because he played golf in South Africa, and Colin Cunningham's expensive legal library for making apposite observations on the running of the Country. Then there was the Mulungushi village, constructed to house participants in the Non-Aligned Conference ( also the reason for Mulungushi Hall being built). All this for something lasting but a few days!! Who lives in this village now? Bill Cosby spoke about buying expensive sneakers, instead of educating the kids. I think there is a great parallel here. I could go on & on, but what's the point? It is my prediction that Zambia will never be developed, if left to it's own devices. Arthur Wina was Minister of Finance in the early '70s, and while being interviewed on ZTV, was asked,"What would you do if you wakened tomorrow and found all your business interests had disappeared?" His reply was," I would just go back to my village". I think he hit the nail square on the head as to the mindset of even relatively educated Zambians, (he had a B.A. in something). I make no apologies for writing this, as I have become sick and tired of all of the crude polemics lost in the corridors of elementary proposition.
Ken Fernie [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Irvine, California, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 20:32:47 (UTC)
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Hello Peeps,
Big favour - I need a picture of Scooby Doo - don't ask why - yes, will tell you. The boyfriend needs one, he is an amateur DJ and would like to go under the handle of : You guessed it. Am a shi...y artist so help please.
Ps: No naughties!!!
Gill Main [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Aberdeen, Scotland
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 19:12:07 (UTC)
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For those of you who are interested in the stars and such there is a great site called Astronomy picture of the Day at
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/
They have some really great pictures and commentaries on astronomy.
Another nice site is http://www.Spaceweather.com which gives some great pictures on al sorts of space weather including Sunspots and aurorae (which one never sees in Joeys).
It kind of puts the puny battles of this grain of sand into perspective against the age of the universe which is now estimated at 13.7 billion years.
Go have fun and enjoy life.
Gwyneth Thomas [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Johannesburg, South Africa
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 19:11:20 (UTC)
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Well said Ian, the truest reflection we have had yet, also some very true remarks from meneer Tamm I have racial tendencies they were ipregnated into me by the actions of a collection of Zambian racists who imagined that I had acted unjustly in trying to prevent the use of bombs, fire etc Mr Phineas Bulawayo and his band of so called freedom fighters never let up on the threats as they eventually came into power, my wife was taken to the police station for crossing a stop street white line by 1 inch, luckily they had also pulled in the local coloured politicians wife who phoned her husband and got them released, I left a farm of sorts on the Kafue also 3 boats one on the kafue one on lake Tangynika and one on the Zambezi plus numerous other stuff Is there ny wonder i have these tendencies Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 18:11:11 (UTC)
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Zumla, pressing and pressing:
Funny isn't it...misappropriation is not an African monoploy!
With such apparent positive inner convictions that Zambia is the place, you really need to either get of the toilet, or move back there. With the exception of Heather, and one or two others, the folks who read this moved out of the country because a> they were forced to or b> they saw the future of the country head seriously downhill. How right they were. Is that a negative view? Most certainly is, but it is also 100% supported by economic data. If the situation in UK is so poor (as you have often described), and the situation in India, Zambia and elsewhere is so much better, go on and do something about it rather that whinge over here. Go back, make a succes, and then crow about it from Lusaka!
You are tempting me to post a current economic status report on the country which I know you will be reluctant to read and accept.
This place, I am reminded constantly, is about Zambia - not Iraq, India, the US etc. So cut the baiting.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 17:43:02 (UTC)
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Ayub
Whilst not for one moment denying the existence of racism in Northern Rhodesia I think you are somewhat over egging the pudding, and therefore undermining your propositions, by suggesting that apartheid existed as such. Remember that the ugly system of apartheid was, by definition, an official government policy.
I have just being viewing the Government Staff List for 1962 and it is obvious that non whites were slowly making their way up through the service - there were considerable numbers of District Officers with obviously African names senior to more junior DOs with British names. NR was never a settler country and the British administrators were, in the main, always going to go home after their service. What did happen was that Independence became inevitable much earlier than anticipated. I am sure few would have seriously suggested that it could or should be deferred until an indigenous Civil Service was ready!
Ian
Ian Singer [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 16:55:06 (UTC)
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My dear Gilly it would take a little more than ambiance to curtail my scotch intake, but after seeing the pics of one of the Hooters I am definitley going to find one I am going to Pontefract tommorow and Liverpool next year is there any at either of these locations?.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 15:53:55 (UTC)
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Keith,
Sorry mate have to agree with Frank,in Kitwe we did get involved with the so called locals,I always thought that we were all locals.I can remember going to quite a few great weddings and parties,but then maybe Kitwe was a paradise on its own,oh ! I almost forgot,I used to hang around Ndola,Luanshya,Mufulira,Kabwe and Lusaka,and found it much the same,then again we only moved in the groups that we wanted to.No this does not have anything to do with class,some of us have died drunks and others have died millionares,and some of us just keep rolling on.Was I dreaming all those years ago?or was I the only one that really enjoyed my life in Zambia the best way I knew how.Please do not ask me what that was or I would have to write a book,those who know me know what I mean.
Pappy Papier [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Glasgow, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 15:49:34 (UTC)
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Dear Ali
What do I find when I check the Board: you got yourself knocked up, or rather, banged up. Rephrase - were involved in a slight problem of the vehicular variety. Glad to hear you are okay and that the red light is still working and your beastie is back to normal - arfff, arff, arff. Seriously, hope you are fine. Bet it was a male driver that caused it though - oops now I am being sexist!
Johnny and Hooters - not a good mix - when they call last orders our lad would be demanding, as a pensioner, a seasonal pass. Mind you, the ambiance of the place would curtail his scotch intake, nes pas?
Gill Main [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Aberdeen, Scotland
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 15:10:11 (UTC)
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Ken
You asked "where did all the money go to?". Similar questions are asked all the time , wherever you live! Last night's headlines indicate that the poor Iraqis are short of billions of dollars ..their oil money given by the UN to occupying force's administraters to rebuild the country...has disappeared! Into thin air! What an example to set for the new Iraqi government. Funny isn't it...misappropriation is not an African monoploy!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 10:20:13 (UTC)
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Kieth Binns,
Though I agree with a lot of that which you say about this site, I have to disagree with your comment regarding the exclusion of the local people, I believe that many of us like myself got very involved in our time there with the local people, in a wide range of social and sporting activities, I was very involved in local soccer, the cubs and scouts organisations my wife in the letchwe's one of my closest friends was Michael Mwatalume Sikopo, sorry to disagree but I do feel that though you may be largely correct it is too bog a generalisation to be acceptable.
Frank.
Frank Yoxall [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Woking, Surrey, England, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 09:55:03 (UTC)
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This GNR site is quite fascinating and I have been following all the messages with varied levels of interest for several months now.
I wonder why it holds so much fascination, not just for me, but for the many followers and contributors to its pages. I have lived and worked in quite a few countries and somehow can’t imagine getting caught up in all their gossip, banter, jokes, photographs and political arguments, even if equivalent sites for those other countries actually existed. What is the fascination of having been in Northern Rhodesia / Zambia versus say, India, Fiji, Norway, Poland, Mexico, Scotland or anywhere else?
I have a few theories:
For most of us our time there was so long ago that it is pure nostalgia; the pleasant memories remain and the less pleasant ones fade with time,
For most of us we will never return,
We were mostly a separate race/class/religion/culture/background from the indigenous people, had very little to do with them and now share a bond amongst ourselves which still excludes them.
Maybe we even feel in some way a bond as one would with an adult child who has left home and gone on his own path. We have fed him clothed him, loved him (still love him) and put him on the right path but now he has got his independence and it is up to him if he wants to go astray, be a spend thrift, be dishonest, not plan for the future and go to the (World) bank for loans. We look from afar at that land and hope it will become successful, safe, healthy, prosperous, an example to its neighbours and maybe even a local power.
Any thoughts before I go and search for a similar web page for Indonesia?! But then again, they didn’t play rugby, were colonised by another European power, don’t have a lingua franca which could cause offence to the locals, don’t speak English (on the whole), are Islamic and don’t have the exotic animals of Africa.
Keith Binns [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 06:53:32 (UTC)
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Mr. Zumla,
Mine was a loaded question. there were no science majors graduated. All of the graduates were in the talking classes, Poly. Sci., Law or Edu. This was the pattern from Ghana to Nigeria and beyond. I am not trying to denigrate the efforts of these students, but to point out that for many years the state of the union in any African country was dependent on those horrible whites that brought their expertise to aid the independent unities to adulthood.
The continued assault on the "colonial oppressors" is a laughable excuse for the corrupt and venal rulers of post Colonial Africa that we see in Africa to this day.
Kenneth Kaunda included.
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 04:01:59 (UTC)
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Looking for Laura (nee) Avery ex from Chingola, married and moved to Harare, from there on i do not know,
Tony Bannister [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Sydney, Australia
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 02:55:36 (UTC)
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Chris, you unrepentent rat you made me chuckle uncontrollably. Can you live with that? P.S. Take your heart pills before you get any deeper into your own mental creation.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 01:53:54 (UTC)
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Y'know, reading, instead of deep in the fray you realise how little you or any other individual has a monopoly on the whole picture. The picture (which is a bit different for each viewer) expands by each original snippet of contribution. Each individual person's "unshakeable grasp of many so called truths" stems from his or her viewpoints, experiences and perceptions. One way or another these expand the whole and by widening the body of information provoke new thought (or madness). So actually arguments are not won or lost, they just are. (But that's only my perception heh heh). S'interesting, she said cautiously. Via venting and open expression argument can even have a healing aspect and it's quite a ride. And as Doug of Grewar said, all one has to do to start a different topic is contribute it.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 01:48:36 (UTC)
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Oooops sorry Doug, did not mean to sound offensive, but have to reply to agree with your comments. I just must have got carried away a wee bit. We certainly were well looked after by Sir Roy in Southern Rhodesia at that time to the extent we were able to buy four new John Deere tractors from your old company, Smith and Bennets (Salisbury) in the early sixties to complement the wrecks we had. I was only 17 then but well remember what a difference they made. I was not aware that the preferencial rates to afford same was coming down from the earnings in the Copper Belt. Despite the prosperity and good life in the South I moved North and found a much more genuine and classness society in the Valley than anywhere in Southern Rhodesia where I felt an outsider, despite having many friends. Also regarding your maize crop of 25, we hit 17, early sixties, in Mashonaland and this was considered to be quite a feat, the rains came early. Sad to say I am as yet a Haggis harvesterand the price is 60p per lb. I don't think this would have raised many eyebrows on the floor so many years ago. Regards Colin. PS Koos, sadly departed, was not my granny , just a good kinsman.
Colin Munro [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Oban, Scotland, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 01:27:30 (UTC)
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PK Magee, innocently:
Actually, the British contingent might consider an impromptu get together in Birmingham or Nottingham and someone might give Johnny a lift down and in the course of getting together he too could be introduced to a Hooters - to Hooters, to a Hooter or two?
You might like to order the chicken there - the breast is tender, the legs just fall apart, and the stuffing is......
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 00:57:09 (UTC)
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Surely class relates to wealth in this materialistic world so how can the powers of the day be accused of leaving no middle class in Northern Rhodesia, regardless of race? Wealth takes some considerable time and expertise to accululate, certainly longer than the few years that independence was envisioned in the sixties. It would be going round in circles to appropriate blame for the reasons of the imbalance but would not answer the question. The splendid, hard-working, middle class citizens of Uganda did not get much of a chance to remain there to enhance the prosperity of the country in which many were born! Regarding the removal of the toilet seat from LM, I also recall a certain M. Jamieson (Scot) returning to collect the dustbin he had inadvert
enly left behind in Tete.
Colin Munro [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Oban, Scotland, United Kingdom
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 00:25:44 (UTC)
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Tina...........too witty tooo troooo
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 00:19:43 (UTC)
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Yes, lovely Saturn stuff Peter. Almost better than Hooters? Well, do you think so? Owls are rather sweet.
Actually, the British contingent might consider an impromptu get together in Birmingham or Nottingham and someone might give Johnny a lift down and in the course of getting together he too could be introduced to a Hooters - to Hooters, to a Hooter or two? I'm not really sure how one should say that correctly. It's a most enjoyable gimmick for the lads. Nothing racy, Johnny, it would just be very easy on your eyes. Here we have about five in a 30 mile radius and it's another mainstream restaurant choice like "Fridays" or "Applebees" etc. (From a female perspective the wait staff is sweet with a good sense of humour and I think they earn every cent they make and I quite like the chicken wings).
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 23:50:14 (UTC)
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Ayub:
Go to http://housecall.trendmicro.com
Follow the instructions on the site to download (free) the tool to clean any virus from your computer. It is constantly updated and is a pretty reliable tool.
Also look on this same site on the the virus encyclopaedia link to see how to clean up this particular virus manually if you want to handle it specifically.
Hope it helps :)
Doug Grewar:
Thank you, thank you!! What a lovely surprise to come home from pumping iron until I felt like I could sing Hueeeeey all by myself to find your prezzie waiting for me. I am now sitting listening to the beautiful music of West Nkosi playing, "Help Me Make It Through The Night." I could have used a similar song.."Help Me Make It Through This Set!" about an hour ago... grin.
I'm curious about the packet of popcorn that was included with the CD? Was that made from mealies grown in your own back garden? Or was that my bonus for being able to get all the tape and bubble wrap off the CD. Almost gave myself a hernia. Ha! Ha!
Thanks, again. You are a super star!
Linda Hayes (née Dore) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Austin, Texas, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 22:08:33 (UTC)
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Here we go again! Fix the blame and to hell with the problem. To read some of the latest postings, one would think that Zambia had just transitioned from the Advisory to the Executive. It's now forty years almost and still it's all the Bwana's fault.Yes, it could be said that there was a dearth of educational facilities for the indigini. Anyone ever heard of the Evelyn Hone College for Further Education? One would reasonably expect that there would have been a tremendous leap twixt then and now, but what? As far as being re-colonized by the World Bank and the IMF, for Christ's sake, give me a break. There are only two ingredients to a loan. 1. You have to get it - 2. You have to pay it back. Simple economics. Nearly every Third-World country (among others, I admit) have either defaulted or had their "Loans" (in some cases interpreted as gifts for that new tribe called "The Wa-Benzi"} wiped away. How many times did Kaunda visit his foreign pals with his copper begging-bowl?
To paraphrase Peter Paul and Mary, "Where did all the money go?" Pleeez, let's get back on track and treat this site with the reasons for which it was intended. Enough of the racial crap. BTW, the Scots are pale blue,
the Irish lean towards the pinkish. I myself am now a delicate ecru - thank you California!
Ken Fernie [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Irvine, California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 21:53:43 (UTC)
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Zumla, real harshly:
Tamm,
I think most on this board know where you coming from! You postings remind me so much of the literature produced by the BNP here in the UK!
Mmmm, can you show me an example? I guess I have never seen any BNP literature.
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 21:44:36 (UTC)
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Glen..talking about the internet..anyone know of a tool which would remove this Trojan virus:
TRJ/Downloader.GK
It is going around at the moment and slows down your PC.
I have tried a lot of Anti-virus scans but to no avail.
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 20:43:08 (UTC)
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Ayub, Is NATIONALIST and INTERNATIONALIST the the same as NET and INTERNET, COURSE and INTER------.
Never mind.
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 20:37:30 (UTC)
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Robert
I see the point you are trying to make. Unfortunately in Zambia the educational system was heavily biased against the indigenous population. I am not so sure as to the make-up of the professions of the 100 Graduates..my guess is that most would be in the Social Sciences. I will however look the figures up and let you know.
According to Anthony Martin in his book "Minding their own Business"(it is a good read)
"..the most damaging criticism of all against the colonial and federal governments of Northern Rhodesia, despite its possession of the richest economy in Africa north of the Limpopo, found itself at independence with a smaller number of educated Africans in relation to the population than virtually any other of Britain's African colonies. In 1963 there were fewer than 100 Zambian university graduates and fewer than 1000 secondary school graduates- the figure attained in Ghana in 1943, in Uganda in 1955.." He goes on..."..the education of the Africans was deliberately held back under the Federal system which split education on racial lines...starved of funds". He also adds that given the nature of the country's economy, enhanced opportunities for Industrial training were manifold..but that "it was actually illegal for an African to be apprenticed to a trade until 1959, and the informal colour bar restricted the acquisition by Africans of Industrail skills right up to the end of the Federation"
So my guess is that very few African were graduates in Engineering.
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 20:37:30 (UTC)
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Glen...not a nationalist but an INTERNATIONALIST!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:59:25 (UTC)
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Tamm,
I think most on this board know where you coming from! You postings remind me so much of the literature produced by the BNP here in the UK!
Glen!Glen! Glen!..Wherefore art though coming from?
For thy will be the Kingdom wherein thy will not want anyone to protest too much...suggest you try telling that to all those who suffer from oppression..be it in Zimbabwe or China or anywhere else. I guess according to you..they should stop protesting too much! Strange logic!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:56:37 (UTC)
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Ayub - how's this for a prod?
In your last posting Genes, God and Glen all had capital letters - Good!
I'm also glad that you used a capital letter for the White patient, however, you didn't mention his/her nationality. H-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m . . . . . . . when you mentioned the Indian Doctor (both starting with capital letters) you omitted mentioning his colour.
That's it! I apologize . . . . . . . . . . . .
You're a NATIONALIST not a RACIST!
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:51:23 (UTC)
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Mr. Kumla,
My, you have stepped on a hornets nest.
You wrote "At the time of independence Zambia had less than 100 indigenous Graduates! That shows the bugger all was done to educate the local populous! (sic)With an Apartheid-type system in operation in Zambia, lets face it.. Britain could have ruled another hundred years and there would have been no more than 300 graduates of local origin! "
You are quite right, the local populace were left behind in the educational race. But in perspective, Bologna was the first university established in Europe, closely followed by Oxford and Cambridge in the 13th century. Up until 1945 and later and after almost 800 years since their founding, there were not too many working class graduates from either place. The glacial change in educational opportunity, meant that just about ninety percent of British children were weeded out by the old 11 plus exams and dumped on the labour market as young as 14. If the politicians at home cared so little of their own, what makes you think that they would rush to emancipate native populations?
I have not visited Zambia since the day I left in 1963. I did try to cross the border at the Victoria Falls in 1966, but was declared a "Prohibited Visitor." I had criticised Kenneth Kaunda in a radio program that I ran in Los Angeles. From what I have seen on this site and from friends, I would submit that there is little that is better in the country today than in 1963.
One question that I have to ask you. Of the one hundred graduates at independence, how many were in the engineering and sciences?
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:29:07 (UTC)
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Ali, Will Knott, Chris, Johnny
Thanks for all the explanations re: NZ/OZ 'jet lag'.
Perhaps our Johnny can come up with some other excuse for the shellacking that the Poms suffered at the hands of the Waltzing Matildas on Saturday!
Johnny, please get Pamela to give Johnny Wilks a tummy rub & get him back into the team pronto!!
best regards
Bill Hunt [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Widenham, Natal, South Africa
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:13:48 (UTC)
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Ayub -
"Protest too much" comes from Hamlet by William Shakespeare; the Queen speaking: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Note: people do not usually use the word "methinks" when they are speaking English today.) To "protest too much" is to insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what you are saying. Example: "Do you think he is telling the truth?" Answer: "I think he protests too much."
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 19:13:22 (UTC)
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Zumla, in cold blood:
Glen,
I do object strogly about your suggestion that my comment was "racist". Racism is a very in-depth thing...if it is embedded in you... unfortunately it will remain there forever. Fortunately my Genes are devoid of it and thank God there are many others with the same Genes too! You see Glen..I can call Mugabe a lot of names..tyrant,bigot,racist,tribalist etc etc..but one thing I would not curse him by is the colour of his skin. That is not me! Just last week a Doctor friend of mine working in the Casualty Department af his local hospital got a shock when a White patient refused to be treated by him because he was Indian! My friend was upset and I told him the same thing.."it is embedded in some people! You cannot change them..either ignore them or confront them..if it happens again next time give the idiot a blood transfusion..preferably from an Indian Donor"!!
Sheesh, the above posting really does show up your genes.
Funny thing this race thing - Zumla starts a thread accusing the Brits of not doing enough, Drake responds calmly and rationally, Zumla has his back to the wall and comes back throwing the race card. This guy, talking about Indian Blood Transfusions, claims he has no racist genes?
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 18:26:04 (UTC)
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Glen,
I do object strogly about your suggestion that my comment was "racist". Racism is a very in-depth thing...if it is embedded in you... unfortunately it will remain there forever. Fortunately my Genes are devoid of it and thank God there are many others with the same Genes too! You see Glen..I can call Mugabe a lot of names..tyrant,bigot,racist,tribalist etc etc..but one thing I would not curse him by is the colour of his skin. That is not me! Just last week a Doctor friend of mine working in the Casualty Department af his local hospital got a shock when a White patient refused to be treated by him because he was Indian! My friend was upset and I told him the same thing.."it is embedded in some people! You cannot change them..either ignore them or confront them..if it happens again next time give the idiot a blood transfusion..preferably from an Indian Donor"!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 17:05:38 (UTC)
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I don't think I mentioned anything about Hindu/Muslim/Sikh deaths in the carnage. I was talking about the merits of leaving a local civil service. I thought even the most uneducated would subscribe to the notion that the existence of such a service would help any newly independent country. At the time of independence Zambia had less than 100 indigenous Graduates! That shows the bugger all was done to educate the local populous! With an Apartheid-type system in operation in Zambia, lets face it.. Britain could have ruled another hundred years and there would have been no more than 300 graduates of local origin! Was it not the belief of the Colonials that "educating the local would be dangerous for us ..in the long-run"! This dictum was applied to slaves in America for years!
As to the legacy of partition..there are many viewpoints on the causes of it. Suffice here to say that in the long run those Muslims who wanted a separate State and who now live in Pakistan(and Bangladesh) seem vindicated, especially after the last Indian Government's role in inciting violence in Gujarat recently. The Government being the BJP Hindu Nationalist one. Lets also remember that religious strife is not only a Third World problem...we have had it in Ireland for years.
Human nature is such that a people would rather be ruled by a tyrant of their own pedigree .. than by someone from outside.Rightly or wrongly, that is how people's perceptions are! You can go into a country and attempt to liberate/colonise it but but the line between Liberation,Occupation and Oppression is an extremely thin one! People's perceptions change very quickly!
By the way..I thought Thirld World countries are already re-colonised...World bank, IMF, Foreign policies of Western Governments??? Their Economic policies are dictated by them.So whats the problem anyway!!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 16:32:43 (UTC)
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Ayub, Ayub, Ayub – so much of what you say is predicated on the same worn out, two hundred year old excuses used by Afro-Americans who live in a country where, despite all the opportunities afforded them, only a handful make millions a year, mainly through their prowess in sport. Sit down and ask yourself whether the legacy that Mugabe is going to leave behind is going to be better or worse than that left behind by “Colonialism” and/or Ian Smith? You gratuitously admit that “especially in Zambia” British left in a peaceful manner, and you even admit to them having left an infrastructure in place. You then place blame on the British for not having left an African middle Class or an educated African Civil service in place.
But hang on Ayub . . . . . . . . on Friday, May 28, 2004 at 19:15:11 (UTC) didn’t you say that :
“During the rule of KK in Zambia let us not forget that his closest political and economic adivsors were not indeginous Zambians! Try looking up who they were...you will be surprised! “ (I even left your spelling mistakes in place see, just in case you were to accuse me of misquoting you!)
Sounds to me like another broken record playback of the same racist comment you made about : “The point I have always been making is that there are educated Black Zambians who will find it offensive when addressed in Chilapalapa.” - Thursday, May 06, 2004 at 20:39:36 (UTC)
Just get down to the basic fact Ayub – the British had no option – what they did was to hand the country back to the rightful owners who were in the majority. What buggered up the deal, as it has (or is destined to be) in virtually every instance is that the departing Colonials didn’t take with them the REAL greed. Greed’s closest relative is Corruption – tons of it still available here on Wall Street in New York and in the hallways of the Capitol building in D.C. Combine the ruthless greed of a few, with empty promises to poor uneducated people, and the result is ………. Zimbabwe. Maybe Zambia? Tanzania? Angolia? Nigeria? Somalia? (Boring, boring . . . . . the list goes on and on).
So if the British “failed dismally” is it because they failed to change the inherent culture of a nation?
If in fact the latter is true, the last thing Zimbabwe needs is that stupid toilet seat taken aboard that plane leaving LM, don’t you agree?
So now, while I ponder . . . “The question of whether Colonialism was good or bad is dependent upon when and at what time one asks that question. It also depends on what legacy the Colonial power left behind.” And use as examples, Canada and Australia – and yes, maybe even as per your suggestion, India, I’ll try and figure out why Africa is such a problem.
Finally – thanks for the prod – much appreciated.
Glen Drake [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 16:02:32 (UTC)
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Mr. Zumla,
You wrote,
"The most positive aspect of British rule was the relative peaceful nature of it and the infrastructure they left behind. Where the British failed dismally (especially in Zambia) was that they left no African middle Class behind or an educated African Civil service. This was due to their obsession of holding on to an Apartheid style of rule till the very end. Contrast this with India..where a functional local civil service helped the country overcome some of its problems.
As to the mortality rates..these are now governed by HIV/Aids and have nothing to do with Colonialism! "
The partition of India was not done on the wishes of the Colonial office but at the insistance of Muhammed Ali Jinnah, the Muslim leader. It was bitterly opposed by
Ghandi. I cannot agree that the Indian Civil Service did anything in the way of helping the country in its problems. The carnage wreaked by both Muslim and Hindu was on a scale, that even today, dwarfs most civil conflicts.
Let's see, "India had a middle class but Zambia didn't."
India had been a trading nation for millenia. Clive and the British had a longer time frame to achieve this, something like two hundred or more years. Zambia had had no commercial intercourse with others; in the early part of the twentieth century ninety- nine per cent of the population had never seen a wheel and there was no written language. I wish someone would give credit to the White Fathers of Abercorn for their work in recording the Bantu languages of Zambia.
In sub- Saharan Africa, one cannot dispute that fact that starvation, ethnic cleansing and genocide are right up there with HIV/Aids in depleting the population.
I am not sure who said it, but the old aphorism holds. The amount of democracy one craves for, is in inverse proportion to the grain available to eat. The general populace of Zimbabwe may well agree it.
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 15:47:45 (UTC)
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Peter D..........those shots of Saturn are incredible.......thanks for the link.
Johnny.....thanks......good thinking about the Elephant
juice !!
Rachel M.......Thank you for your touching email.
Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 15:33:52 (UTC)
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If I remember correctly after the hand over of power to the Indian goverment the one you claim was trained up a little for the job, resulted in 13 million deaths in the first 3 months of the change over.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 14:47:59 (UTC)
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Pleased to hear your ok and no damage to you, only the car, an excellent tonic for nerves is a good intake of the elephants favourite tipple, Marula Juice which you are familiar with, Prost and love Johnny.x
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 14:37:25 (UTC)
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Hi all,
the news is I had a small prang ,apart from my nerves I am fine..........but! alas my little red beastie is a little crushed, nothing too bad just a light missing and the right panel a little squashed in.....still is drivable so it won't be long before it is back to normal!........cest' la vie
Thanks Tina and Linda for your warm thoughts.........Ali
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 13:42:42 (UTC)
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The question of whether Colonialism was good or bad is dependent upon when and at what time one asks that question. It also depends on what legacy the Colonial power left behind. Try telling an Algerian that Colonialism was good for his country. Bet you...you would get a thump in between your thighs! The French left with a lot of blood on their hands! The Potuguese also spilt a lot of blood and raped their African Colonies to the end; even fleeing with office equipment and chairs!!. In one instance even a toilet seat was ripped out and taken on board a plane departing LM!!.The most positive aspect of British rule was the relative peaceful nature of it and the infrastructure they left behind. Where the British failed dismally (especially in Zambia) was that they left no African middle Class behind or an educated African Civil service. This was due to their obsession of holding on to an Apartheid style of rule till the very end. Contrast this with India..where a functional local civil service helped the country overcome some of its problems.
As to the mortality rates..these are now governed by HIV/Aids and have nothing to do with Colonialism!
If you want to expand the debate on the benefits of one particular rule over another.. one can argue that Saddam Hussein would have been better for his Nation than what exists today..after all, there was an education system,jobs were there....ask the Iraqis themselves and I can assure you that many would say that they were better off under Saddam. Ask them in a few years time and you may get a different answer.The debate about being better off under one rule or another can therefore go on and on....times have changed..and we have to move on also!
Ayub Ismail Zumla [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Manchester, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 12:18:28 (UTC)
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Northeners...
Take a peek at this - the Saturn Cassini mission - almost as good as Hooters :)....
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/
Peter Dielissen [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 08:50:08 (UTC)
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Robert how any one could argue to the contrary about the benefits of colonalisation in Africa I dont know, I saw the improvements to the living standards over the years and it was not until the politicians stepped in with there promises of a new world if they won the elections that the comradie between african and colonisers began to sour, I can remember my faithful servant and friend Raphel saying to me when the price of mealie meal had risen from around 50 ngwee a bag to 9 kwacha when is this independence going to end Bwana, I myself can lay claim to educating a lot of my african workers one in particular who was new from the bush and could not speak a word of English to sing( I do like to be besides the sea side} oh happy days, and I hope he is still singing it. Johnny.
PS I wonder how a referendum on should all the whites that left Zambia between 64 and 80 return again if any one coul'd arrange one I will take all the bets.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 08:09:04 (UTC)
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When I emmigrated to the United States from Northern Rhodesia in 1963 I enrolled at the University of California at Los Angeles. I signed up for a class in African Affairs.
The professor, a liberal type, set the essay to be an examination of, "Was Colonialism good for Africa or not." I remember spending a great deal of time on the subject and came up with the astonishing answer, "Yes, on the whole it was." He thought I was some rogue racist and marked me accordingly. Later, when I had to remind him that his use of place and tribal names was all wrong and his pronunciation was just pain awful, he came to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe I knew of that which I spoke. We spent some time together speaking of the Rhodesias and Nyasaland and he eventually agreed, that the incorruptiblity of the civil service, in British controlled territories was an enviable trait.
No matter what some on this board may believe, the life expectancy of the Bantu population , south of the the Congo, was greater from 1924 to 1980, than it is now.
I wonder if the people of Zimbabwe sometimes don't yearn for the safety net of paternalistic colonialism?
Robert Huntley [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Carmel, California, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 01:47:24 (UTC)
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Ali was just in a car wreck. Physical damage to her is - very shaken and blinding headache. The car didn't do as well. Friend is helping and she is always an optomist but she could use moral support.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Monday, June 28, 2004 at 01:24:39 (UTC)
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Mr Knotty ............yes we are a bit jetlagged over here, but in a delightful way............
Johnny..........yes I love being the key to any situation.......... : )
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 18:19:37 (UTC)
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Ali maybe you are the KEY to the situation? X Johnny.
Johnny [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Scarborough, United Kingdom
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 17:14:04 (UTC)
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Ali and Chris,
Of course you can get jetlag flying from N.Z to Oz.... depends on where you go to and whether you have your eyes open or not. In Jan when we flew Auckland to Sydney, I just slept. Its comparable to trips my Yvette makes. Thurs Ottawa to Vancouver..... 5.5 hrs then back Friday....4.25 hrs with the jetstream. It takes 5.5hrs Ottawa to London. But 7.5 back here.
As for Perth, the sandgropers - are they not jet lagged all the time anyway.?
Bill
William Knott [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 15:53:29 (UTC)
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This Eve in Slumber a Vision came to me....... He was the embodiment of Some I have Known. Jaarpie of Accent. Young and Wonderfully Wrought and Comely(?) ......but oops that was another Vision and I digess... Attend Thou but a moment more! It is the NEXT Vision whereof I must Speak Here.
The Supreme Being appeared to me in a Dream and She said: "I have read of you as the PK and I am much moved!" "Take 'Immodium' Great One", I said. "It usually stops those sprints to the littlest room on the first dose." But she continued: "Henceforth, Your Name shall not be Peace Keeper - of initials P and K but shall be Peace Maker Supreme - of initials P, M and S".
"...But, SB, there were only three Supremes on earth I said. It could be worse than adding another Spice Girl". And verily she answered: "Pasop and Listen! Henceforth when Thou Encountereth Stirring thou shalt say: 'Peace on You', and pass by! "And so I do!" quoth I! And Lo! That Vision Vanished. But (miracle of miracles!) the Other Vision stayed around and I smiled in slumber and my husband dug me sharply in the ribs.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 15:52:26 (UTC)
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mr Tamm
no I am not related to any Richard Key..........Key is not my maiden name..but my married name.....The name Key is English, and I don't have any English blood flowing through my veins.........
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 09:59:47 (UTC)
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Bill HuntYES you get jetlag when you travel from NZ to Australia !!
Ali Key [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Perth, Australia
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 09:53:06 (UTC)
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Chris
I know why PK's come so readily to mind for you. Your logic is in the toilet again. You're not making any sense boet in all the stuff you are accusing me of. But I've noticed you do that. When you're not winning a hand you just fuzz the cards and hope no one sees it. But I don't mind. I've had a lovely debate and now I honestly don't give a Tamm. Have another drink and enjoy the sunset.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 03:20:02 (UTC)
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Doug
oukies in Zambo prefer an office to the farm. Exactly ou boeta, this is part of the problem. Even if you give them a farm and/or they take it anyway, they have a habit of seriously underutilising the acreage, at the expense of the peoples sadza supplies.
PK Magee
Louder, and more positive? Struth, that is a bit of a turnaround from the earlier liberal standpoint you subscribe to. But then liberals have a habit of changing their minds. The yanks have a great term for it - flip flopping!
BTW, PK stands for Peace Keeper
Bill H/Bill Knot
Seeing that nobody else picked up on this, may I? Auckland is 2 hours ahead of Sydney, and 5 ahead of Ms Sleutel in Perth. Jet Lag? Yup.
Talking of Ms Sleutel, are you related to Richard Key aka Sleutel by any chance? (We messed together in Lusaka) (Messed means living in the same single quarters for those who may not be familiar with that term)
Fiona
When was anyone here negative in the past? I am not thee won!
Catherine
Who are the angry old men you refer to? People who have lived in Mongu too long? Have a great trip, and leave your American Express Card at home
Lekker naweek alle - need to top up the batteries after a serious rugby disrupted night
Chris Tamm [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Hilo, Hawaii, United States
Sunday, June 27, 2004 at 00:59:03 (UTC)
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Fifi - so good to hear from you!
Cathrine!!!! Quit the simpering about being called young. If you haven't met her folks she is quite lovely. I may think twice about being seen in public with her again when she returns to Dallas for the second time later this year. Just kidding of course honey. Can't wait to see you again and get up to a little mischief. Enjoy your trip.
Chris - Of course there is also a missile called the Peacemaker. Let me consider your words. Maybe those teachers of mine didn't get through. Maybe I don't stand firm enough or fight for my perceptions of right enough or have distinct enough mores or argue my positions firmly enough. I know. I will resolve to be louder and more positive. Why is everyone on the GNR suddenly running away? Actually there are many stages in any democratic process and the needs shift constantly while the ideals remains the same. One of those needs is to ALLOW the opinions of others. Moving on to the comfort and aesthetics bit........
So Glen - my incisive and sometimes derisive "Moving Finger", the first sentence of your reply makes logical sense - Being truly democratic is posting all opinions. Among all the other responses these will include postings on when posted opinions are most enjoyable and when they are uncomfortable and people would rather the train of thought didn't continue. Ahhh democracy in action.
The following only has something to do with Africa if you count Libya, but it should give a few people a giggle. I'm very grateful to the U.S.A. and its people for its welcome to me and the life I have here but I feel a lot safer posting on the GNR than if I were to stand up in a crowd in Texas and yell: "George Bush wears ladies underwear" or were to share with the wrong bunch the true fact that my first fixed wing flying instructor later spent a stint as personal pilot to Muammar Gaddhafi in the years before he got a bit notorious.
The very Scottish Dave Crighton Young had been a Hunter QFI in Bahrain. He returned to England and was flying a desk in London. He wandered out to Biggin Hill Civil Airfield where he instructed several students through PPL on tail draggers. We became great mates. He was then picked as R.A.F. liaison on the emerging Hawker-Siddley Hawk trainer and hung out at Dunstable or is it Dunsfold - I think Dunstable, anyway the test pilot facility. Anyway, there he was for a while with the test pilots before taking the agile little trainer to North Wales and being involved in introducing it into the R.A.F. proper. After he left the R.A.F. he returned to the Middle Eastern contacts he had made and flew Lears and the like first for Gaddhafi and then for various ruling families in the Emirates and Saudi. In fact when still in Lusaka I nearly visited him in Libya (via Rome) on Autair Helicopters (Africa)'s great standby travel perk but ended up going to my aunt in Brazil instead. He pointed out in later years that when the kuffuffle with Gaddhafi happened in the 80's that of course from that ruler's point of view The Gulf of Sidra would be seena as his backyard and inviolate. I held my peace but inwardly pondered different viewpoints and freedom of speech.
Tina Magee (née Wallace) [ Profile ] [ Contact ]
Texas, United States
Saturday, June 26, 2004 at 20:49:15 (UTC)
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